Why white children are not getting into grammar schools

Yes I think so

i used to work in a private school and the girls were discouraged by parents from doing drama and things like textiles or cookery, everything was geared around science and maths and it is a shame

i understand the parents want them in the medical professions or accounting but what if they are not good at these and prefer the arts

UK state schools should be for absolutely everyone, no questions asked. That's what universal education means. If people genuinely are traveling to the UK to access education, the vast majority of them will be in private boarding schools and universities. And honestly, both are grateful for the money.
Having said that, I do think grammars should have catchment areas. Liverpool was until relatively recently short 400 school places, in part because of DC from surrounding areas traveling in to the schools (mostly religious schools where church attendance trumps distance but yes, also the grammar).
I do think there are more important things than relentlessly tutoring a child, yes. If that's white person mentality, so be it. One reason birth rates in Korea are so low is because being a child or a parent is such a miserable, expensive experience there. My youngest DC is dyslexic, not very academic, and wants to be a tree surgeon when he grows up. Good for him, honestly. Yes, he does his homework. Yes, we read to him every night and take him to museums and teach him his times tables and so on. But there is no universe where hot housing him into failing the 11+ is going to be anything other than miserable for both of us. So he'll be going to a different school to DC1 and that's fine. I'd rather he spent his evenings doing hobbies, playing with friends and having a happy childhood. I don't actually think that makes me a bad person.
DH used to say that as soon as you introduce a metric, people will figure out how to game it. I genuinely don't believe it's possible to make an 11+ that can't be manipulated. But as I said upthread, I don't really believe they should exist at all ...

i think some communities start the preparation early - they know what school they want their child to attend before their child is born and start tutoring as soon as possible. Children from white backgrounds probably don’t get this head start. With that being said I think drives as some whites parents to send their children to private schools as they don’t want their child to be the only white one.

@Araminta1003What grammars don’t get dc into Cambridge for maths every so often? My local ones do. And we are lowly Bucks grammars - not super selectives. None of the dc I know who went have had separate tutors.

I remember employing a tutor for dd in 6th form to help her improve her A level biology, she was bright but it was how you approached the questions itms.

it definitely helped her to achieve and go on to have the career she aspired to

@smogsville - for people who live in London near train stations, the commute is not that bad. If you live near London Bridge station (walking distance) there are quite a few grammar schools your DC can easily access.
In addition, I do not know anyone who goes for it who just sits their DC for one exam! There are plenty of options and actually, you can never guarantee them doing well on one day.
So lots of people are now sending their DC to eg 4 sets of exams in the autumn term of year 6. If they are bright and capable, a lot of kids do not mind and have been bored out of their minds in state primary. For the right sort of child, it is a good extension. They then relax in the rest of year 6.
My own DC did the exams and then wanted to do two sets of Grade 8 Abrsm exams in year 6 too. Some of the other kids are playing sport at extremely high level too or musical theatre or drama or whatever. All this nonsense of gifted kids being hothoused just academically is just nonsense. A lot of bright kids are multitalented and bored without extension opportunities. Yes, for Indian boys it is often Cricket, so what. They are playing county cricket, at least.
I do feel sorry for the kids who need tutors all the way through. Ultimately, they will have to get a job one day without a tutor.
If they are in average state schools being lost in the crowd without good teaching aimed at their level, completely understand why they need a tutor.
Or sometimes they are maths genius and the school is not teaching to the international Olympiad or Cambridge STEP level even in a top grammar, so again, if they are capable of international level maths and it is beyond their parents and they are better than their teachers, nothing wrong with tutoring. People do it in sports, they do it for music etc. I have to work from home one day a week just to drive my DC to a music teacher who can extend them at their level.

One of my 'hothoused' kids is an engineer and the other is doing a masters in economics and has been offered a job in a consultancy on graduating.

Kids i know are going into investment banking, dentistry

What jobs do there hot housed kids do ultimately?

No. But I do employ tutors alongside average state-school education and I plan to do it until the age of 18 where it is needed. I'd love to think I didn't need to but I can see (at least currently) that it's necessary.

And I have every sympathy for state-school teachers. Getting the best out of every child in a class when you have 32 students 6 times a day (seeing almost 200 kids a day) is obviously completely impossible. So parents have to support. And no, we don't have big cars or expensive holidays. We are white but value education above other luxuries.

And if that's what you feel is best for your children, it's absolutely fine.

I'm not saying an average state school is bad. I'm saying, if you have your heart set on a grammar, you have to work towards it.

Those non-white families don't just tutor to get into grammar by the way. They employ tutors all the way up to A Levels. It isn't a short, sharp burst. It's a long-term commitment to education.

I also think UK state schools should be exclusive to UK people (by whatever definition.)

I find it very hard to believe that's not already the case. People can apply from abroad? How does that even work?

Some of the kids were really struggling after being hot housed to pass the exam. A single exam that you can be coached to pass isn’t the best way to identify the brightest students.

A friend of my DC goes to a nearby grammar school, and had 2 to 3 hours of homework per night from the start of year 7. If you’re intelligent enough, a state school student is capable of excellent gcse results without that amount of study per day.

@SlightyamusedandsillyI used to agree with you in principle but I wonder what your understanding of working really really hard is. The bar has been raised it’s not just a case of allocating money for tutoring instead of cars/ holidays. It’s relentless. A (very capable) boy in my son’s class was taken out of school and home tutored for the whole of Y5 in and still missed getting a place by a tiny margin. Is that what you’d want for your children?

Yes, and then worked really, really hard to get in.

If we want OUR kids (whatever colour) to get into grammar, they need to also work really, really hard.

It's all about your focus. If you'd rather pay for flash holidays and big cars than tutors for your children, don't winge when they don't pass the entrance test for the local grammar.

I agree. A DN went to a grammar school with a very high immigrant population. Several students said that their parents had specifically moved to the UK a few years before purely for their DC to go to grammar school.

@CheerfulMuddlerround our way it’s not the case that most of the children who get into the grammar live relatively locally. The entrance exam is a national (not to say international - I think you’re right to say that there are probably relatively few who come from abroad, although the option is there) contest. The children who end up taking up places come from all over London and Herts. Some of the coaches leave their destinations on the outer reaches of east/ west London at 7am every morning. Would it be so outrageous for applicants to need to live within some sort of limited radius?

@deanstreet every Asian i know pushes education to the top of their priorities. I met a lady who does waxing, her daughter is being tutored. I met a corner shop owner, his son is off to one of the top grammars in the country. These people come from nothing. But in work, its predominantly white. Asians have to work much harder to get ahead, and they give their kids a start by prioritising education

I disagree about their residence

I think they should actually live in the UK before they even get a look in and at least some where nearby even if it is in another county/borough. They haven’t paid any council tax or taxes so why are they even being considered

A single applicant from Shanghai is hardly a torrent. Most of the children at grammar schools live relatively locally (most have catchments). Who cares what color their skin is?

What are you suggesting OP? That we ban non locals from grammar entry?

The comps near me were terrible.

Obviously I didn't allow my DC to make their own decisions. Why would I? After all, Asians don't. 🙄

You can still get a good education at a comprehensive school

perhaps it would be good to have more of a mix in grammar schools.

Both my dps went to grammar school and i have brought my own dc up to value education but we did give them time to stop and stare as well and make their own decisions