Why white children are not getting into grammar schools

The ethnic mix affects the curriculum. Asian parents are very keen on STEM which is all well and good but then numbers in other subjects like English and Music drop at A level and they don't run because the numbers are too small. And then there is peer pressure. Asian parents often want kids to go to unis close by and study certain subjects so a white child in a London grammar might be the only child applying to say Sheffield to do History and that can be lonely and isolating.

Research proves that even with the exact same CV, White British candidates still have a clear upper hand in the job market. Ethnic minority families going all-out for grammar schools and universities is just a necessary move to balance out the bias.

Yes, maybe they should just abolish all the grammars and just have comprehensives so the white boys who don't work hard can get in. That way it will be less like Mumbai or Karachi.

In fact, why not extend that philosophy to universities? Have quotas for underachieving white men who are down the pub while those sneaky brown people are studying. That would make it truly inclusive.

Clever " Asians" ie anyone not white. Damned if you work hard and achieve. Damned if you don't.

This is true but I suppose I'd ask why focus on ethnicity as the main factor that will determine whether your DC will fit and belong? It's early days but my white DD fits in well with her peers at grammar school - she's had an easier time making friends than my older dd, and it's also contributing to a vicious circle if people self select out of a process on the basis they don't fit the majority demographic.

I don't love the grammar school system tbh but the whole point of it is it takes the top scoring students. It's a bit odd if you support the concept of a grammar school but then try and make it more comprehensive by adding in all sorts of diversity criteria exceptions (apart from those that are more about adjustments to identify the students with most potential). Why not just make it a comprehensive?

Same. When I picked up DD it was like I was in Karachi or Mumbai. Barely a white face to be seen.

I do find it concerning. The white working class boy has been struggling for decades now. It's not the fault of the hard-working immigrants but where there have been visas given and exceptions made to help integration and welcoming of new peoples, that shouldn't mean that we forget about our own population that have created the country that we all have the privilege to live in. Successive governments have failed the white working class boy for far too long.

Additionally, Indian kids (75%) are far more likely to go to university now, than white British kids (41%). They're also much more likely to go to Oxbridge than their white counterparts.

The White share of the overall population of the UK fell from roughly 92% to 83% from 2000 to 2021. We have added over 10m people to the UK, through net immigration during that time yet we have added no extra infrastructure, such as reservoirs or hospitals. It often feels like we are in a massive, giant social experiment with very poor planning by successive governments.

No white children at our local grammar school, if it was any other race being excluded to this degree there would be diversity and inclusion measures put in place.

from anyone who might have been or might currently be in a situation where their non-Asian children are in a very small minority (5% or less for example) within their school - with the positive and/or negative sides to it

The negative side of predominantly S Asian grammar schools may be the obsession with STEM to the detriment of the arts and sports. Not all grammars are like that but many are. If your family is artsy like ours, DC might struggle to find friends with similar interests in grammar.

S Asian community is changing too, with younger parents being more open to different career paths, but these families tend to choose private schools for more rounded education.

This.

DD was a white child in a predominantly (85-90%) S Asian school, she was fine and we made good friends there.

@DustyMaiden @Breeze67 thank you both and of course - grammar schools are selective and only the highest performing students with the best scores will get in, not matter their ethnicity. And if, for a number of reasons, Asians represent 90%+ of these schools' capacity, then it is remarkable and a great achievement - they just perform better and it is what it is.

Our question wasn't to question any of this, but to get feedback from anyone who might have been or might currently be in a situation where their non-Asian children are in a very small minority (5% or less for example) within their school - with the positive and/or negative sides to it - because as excellent as these schools are, a teenager's fit, integration and 'sense of belonging' is probably just as important and can be a key factor as to whether they thrive where they are - both academically and personally.

We were at Henrietta Barnett grammar recently for the 1st round - there must have been a thousand children, almost all asian. Went to St Paul's for an open day, the complete opposite.

When we were at the first round for Nonsuch (Sutton SET), it was really diverse with a lot of white applicants. By round two, though, Asian applicants were the clear majority, and you could hardly see any white faces. Private schools can manage their diversity, but grammar schools only care about exam marks—it is what it is.

My white DS went to super selective grammar in Essex. His friends made him an honorary Asian because of his work ethic.
The Students that score the highest should get in. The colour of their skin is irrelevant if it’s not part of the selection process.

Thank you @FramingOurObjectives - that's an interesting example where I imagine this could have been more difficult to integrate and make friends outside of school.

This is a reason (amongst others) why I am not trying my DD for the down the road all girls grammar in my city, despite the fact my older children go to the boys grammar.

Just wanted to add, there are lots of mixed ethnicities as well so please don’t worry. The grammar schools that I know are very inclusive.

Thank you @Magnificentkitteh - we actually do have the same approach when it comes to schools that are 90%+ white, as we wouldn't quite want that either. It's very nice to hear that your daughter is happy and has made friends easily despite being in the small minority of her school. There is obviously immense diversity behind what formal categories call "Asian" or "Asian, Other" - our thinking was more around 'looking different' to the vast majority and potentially feeling out of place or excluded as a child/teenager, which of course doesn't have to be the case but is something that we're looking to get feedback on from people's direct experience, so thank you for sharing yours!

Thank you @happypupp ! Very insightful, good to know.

Thank you @LetItGoToRuin - that's great to hear and the balanced mix sounds perfect.

People do seem to worry about this particular lack of diversity a lot more than they worry about a lack of diversity in a predominantly white school, even when it doesn't fit the local demographic. My daughter is white at a 90%+ Asian school but there is diversity within the Asian community too - a mixture of religions, socio-economic backgrounds, cultural heritage and places where people grew up. Many are in fact dual heritage. And she's made friends more quickly and easily than my older daughter did at her quite different school.

We’re in the southeast and have kids in grammar - yes there are many s Asians but I’d say it’s a good mixture. In fact children from Hong Kong are slowly increasing they had tutors everyday in years 4 and 5 and passed with flying colours. The attitude towards 11+ is certainly different to ours (we’re neither white nor south asians/hong Kong)

I’ve noticed they don’t take sport as seriously as we do, so the sport teams DC belong are predominantly white and black, not much in between.

@CalT1989 you might have been better starting your own thread as people may respond to the original post from February instead of yours 13 pages on...

However, to answer your question, we did consider this when choosing secondary school preferences for our daughter. We looked at this data as one factor when choosing a secondary school, to make sure 90% of DD's year group weren't the same (different from her) ethnic background.

She's at a grammar (West Midlands) where her ethnicity is in a minority, but there is a healthy mix and it's great.

Hi everyone,

My wife and I respectively are "Asian" (British Indian) and "White Other" (Western European), hence our two young children being "White and Asian". We are currently considering our options in regards to sending our children to grammar schools or to good non-grammar state schools in a few years, with Berkshire and Buckinghamshire being the two main counties for us to live in.
In a few years' time - i.e., when our children are in age to start secondary school, most of the grammar schools in these counties are likely to have 5-10% of white pupils altogether, which makes us wonder whether it would be easy enough or potentially challenging for our children to fit and not feel 'different', being part of a very small minority of "white-looking" kids.

We do want a diverse school with a genuine mix of ethnic backgrounds (being a mixed family); however, having over 80-90% of pupils of the same/similar ethnic background (for example already in the Slough/Burnham grammar schools) makes it sound difficult to get the more balanced mix that we are hoping for - the key for us being for our children to feel happy, integrated and blossom within whatever school they go to.

What are everyone's thoughts and does anyone have similar considerations?

In our town there are three grammars - two single sex (boys, girls), and a co-ed.

The single sex girls school is 60-70% South Asian, in an area where South Asians make up approximately 15% of the population. Genuinely, well done to them and their families for helping their children to achieve the grades.

However, a lot of white families are choosing the co-ed, not because of racism, but for something a bit more complicated. Some white families who have sent their children to the girls' school report that a groundswell of the South Asian girls are not allowed to go into town / have sleepovers / mix outside of school, so it becomes cliquey with the South Asian girls seeing each other within their communities, and then limits the white girls to being friends with the maybe 6 other girls in their class - whom of course they may have very little in common with. Additionally when fallings out naturally occur, there are fewer options to hang out with a different crowd instead.

So it becomes self-perpetuating. Interestingly the co-ed more or less represents the town in terms of ethnic make-up.

My white British DD is waiting to hear whether she has a place at one of these North London schools with very few white children and the odds are quite favourable for her now. I can't say it hasn't crossed my mind whether we should opt for somewhere more diverse because there must be a cultural factor at play and I wonder if dd will notice being slightly apart from the dominant culture. It really has been very noticeable at the exams, particularly at the second stage. But ultimately I decided that was an odd attitude to have - complaining about a lack of diversity while contributing to a lack of diversity by turning down a place, and frankly you can do a lot worse than mingling in a dominant culture of academic excellence and parental support for education.