Why white children are not getting into grammar schools

Personally I think the test should not be able to be studied for - should be based on a way that is accessible for kids that are more interested in learning than typical (I.e., well read cause they enjoy it, doing puzzle books ect). And I definitely do not think that pupils coming from overseas should get a spot…it should be for kids living in the UK with the right to live in the UK without securing a place at a grammar school - don’t know the visa situation/rules around this though. If the exams could not be studied for in a way to pass the exam then it would level the playing field for everyone and actually identify the more academically gifted students (rather than privileged because parents can avoid tutors or ‘privileged’ in having parents that support them to achieve it (or perhaps push them in some instances)

Benefits didn’t exist in the 1900s

Yes never any time to stop and stare

Are these parents getting tutors to help their DC catch up, or are they pushing for top grades like straight 9s, 4Astars, or Oxbridge? If it's the latter, those kids are already well above grammar school level. Over prepared? Likely, but bright nonetheless.

My previous post also referred to a super selective school 😬

I have been to a few open days, and the girls at a super-selective grammar really stood out to me. They just felt genuinely sharp—every girl I spoke to was so confident and gave really logical answers. On the other hand, girls at two selective private schools gave pretty messy answers and didn't seem nearly as confident. I guess most girls at a top grammar genuinely deserve their places, and those who just tutored their way in are only a minority.

Those that were over prepped tend to need tutors pretty much as they walk into grammar school. I’d like to say regardless of ethnicity but who knows… I frequently see WhatsApp messages popping up asking for tutor recommendations for this and that. I feel so sorry for their DCs but also for the bright kids that don’t need tutors from year 7 who missed out on a place purely because of dropping a few marks in their 11+

Agree. Common sense is enough here—with a healthy dose of preparation for your child, they'll have a happy and productive childhood, provided your child is already strong academically. I would advise anyone who is not grammar school material not to think they can get in purely through effort or tuition. The post above frowns upon a parent of a kid who watches BBC bite size and documentaries and read for two hours, but I've also seen kids playing video games at the library for two hours. Is that a happy childhood? Again, common sense and moderation is key.

Yes and especially among lower socio economic groups who tend to want a more certain career path.

My DD did nothing like that amount of prep but also not nothing. She did about 30 mins of practice about 4 times a week in the 6 months preceding the exam, had 3 hours of tutoring in total plus one mock, and dropped none of her usual hobbies (football, tennis and brownies) or playdates.

But on the whole she enjoyed the prep and picked self study above holiday club in the 2 weeks before the exam. She asked to apply to grammar school in the first place and for me to book a mock. So while I support balance in all things I do think parents can do their kids a disservice by assuming studying is less rewarding than any other pastime and I do think Asian parenting culture generally speaking can be less shy about this.

Thank you and agreed - it is probably easier and somehow better to have a broad mix of multiple ethnic groups (for example 20/20/20/20/20) rather than 90/10 or even 95/5.

Well if that's not a racist comment ! For what it's worth I lived in a grammar school area and taught in one as well as the local comps. There was a large Asian community. Many of the grammar school kids were no cleverer or even weaker than the good kids at the comp which has always led me to conclude that a good kid will do well anywhere. I have also heard parents and pupils at the grammar express the distain you have shown when discussing other pupils choices. Some parents had little respect for teachers for example as we were not "academic enough" and pupils would parrot this. In the end I think you will find that a deep dive into the stats tells a different story about achievement in grammar schools. How many pupils took a "gap year" as in didn't get the grades and are reapplying? How many pupils leave after year 11 so their places are filled with able children from the comps? (As they failed to get the grades for year 12.) The sats scores when we did them in year 9 as well as the cat scores also indicated that the intake was far more diverse than you could imagine but what the pupils at the grammar did have was intensive coaching in an entrance test that had little value elsewhere and that intensive coaching caused incredible pressure in young children as well as them losing hundreds of hours of their childhood. This is why many parents refuse to subject their children to tuition. It is not laziness as you put it. It is caring about the child as a whole person.

From a different viewpoint, Dd1's grammar school (Latymer) is more diverse ethnically that Dd2's east London comp. Dd1's had friends across many races including Jewish, south Asian, east Asian, Black and White. While dd2's school is mainly South Asian and white, so actually feels a bit less diverse.
The grammar has also been great for music and drama, though for A levels Stem subjects are favoured - but I think this is a national trend?

Now this is something I can get behind.

I agree, I've just read a FB post from a parent preparing a child for the Essex test and child's schedule was following:

Sep to July
Mon - Thr : 5pm to 8pm
Fri : No learning
Sat: Tuition 9am to 12 noon
Sun: 9am to 12 noon
Aug
Sun - Fri: 10am to 12 noon, 6pm to 8pm
Sat: Tuition 9am to 12 noon
She consistently read books for 2 hours, watched BBC bitesize, documentaries, BBC kids news every day.

There were many days when the going was tough, when she would hear kids playing outside in the evenings, her friends talking about clubs she used to go to, a sudden drop in fun activities over the weekend etc. All the learning techniques we used are probably worth a separate post if enough people are interested.

This is not something I would subject my child too, but I know it is not unheard of in Asian communities.

I also think an arms race in preparation and tutoring is in no one's interests and personally there's a limit to how much prep I would want my DC to do, especially for the parts of the test with limited intrinsic value. So would support a more tutor proof application system, or just a less competitive approach in general.

Really? I was the only person my school applying to do my subject at my university but that wasn't lonely and isolating. Going to university is a new beginning and I wouldn't expect to go with school friends. But I do understand your wider point, and think it's a shame if people are self selecting out when they do meet the grade as diversity in general is a good thing imo.

@Truinio Fair enough and good if this worked out better for you, but I've seen this be an extremely common thing for families to move to another town or nearby county if it's to offer better school opportunities for their children - is that not what a lot of people do? In our case for example, we currently live in an area with essentially either good but very expensive private schools, or lower than England average state schools - so combining free access and good academics (grammar schools) doesn't sound like a bad idea to us.

Chinese and Jewish people aren't routinely accused by Reform or Restore of being Deliveroo drivers or benefit scroungers or ' coming over on a boat'.

Visas were not given to Asian violinists or artists in the 60s. They were given to doctors and engineers. Bit unfair now to complain that all the doctors who were brought in to build the NHS should have been active in the arts instead!

This entire thread smacks of jealousy really that Asian kids are more clever and work harder.

Difficult to predict whether a child will be happy and make lots of friends - whether they are a minority or part of the overwhelming majority, so ethnicity is definitely not the only aspect. I support both meritocracy and diversity - maybe the Berkshire grammar schools (Slough/Reading) are more of an exception compared to other counties where there is still more of a balanced mix of ethnic backgrounds among the students.

People can choose what they want but those choices affect everyone and society as a whole. If you look at other migrant groups who have been successful in the UK such as the Chinese and the Jewish groups who came earlier in the 20th century they came with nothing yet still were active in the arts.

@CalT1989 I think you’ve nailed why there are disproportionately more Asian kids in grammar schools - you are actually considering moving to a different part of the country simply to access grammar schools. For the vast majority of people this would simply not be a consideration. There are no grammar schools in my county and none in any of the adjacent counties but it would simply never occur to me or anyone in my circle to uproot our family to Bucks or wherever simply to get into a grammar school. It’s not even on the radar.

Indeed. Let's go back to the 1880s when women were banned from studying medicine because they were cleverer and worked harder than the men. Make it truly inclusive.

Thank you @Ubertomusic - I hadn't really thought about this so that's insightful!

They are keen on STEM because they don't have family money to support a career playing the cello. And if they don't have high earning careers, they will be blamed for being leaches on the economy.

It’s funny you mention 'white men'—I suppose the next step is to put history in reverse and ban women from higher education, just to reserve university places for the boys who’d rather slack off!