Why white children are not getting into grammar schools

We mostly got rid of grammar schools for good reasons. Probably other historic threads on MN going into it.

re the article , their is a tendency in Anglo-Saxon cultures (UK, US, Australia New Zealand) to traditionally think that intellectual ability is largely innate (a child is born bright or less bright) whereas in many other cultures there is the idea that intellectual ability is more constructed by effort over time. (Robin Alexander’s book ‘ Culture and pedagogy’ researched this).

I think this is changing a bit over time as schools emphasise ‘growth mindsets’ etc.The whole grammar school shebang was predicated, however, on the Anglo Saxon (Alexander’s term) idea that there are a limited number of children born ‘bright’, waiting to be discovered who deserve to be taught a different curriculum (grammar schools did GCE/O levels and the secondary moderns limited students to a non-academic curriculum via CSEs).

I don’t understand why the state funds grammar schools when we don’t write off the majority of students as non-academic based on one test when they are 10-11 years like we used to. What is the point of them?

For parents who have been influenced by non-Anglo-Saxon cultures there might be more of an idea that you can achieve if you put a lot of effort in can. This can be very motivating for children and parents. There are also other motivating factors for immigrant parents as PPs have said.

@Araminta1003 It does because more parents are themselves well educated and have good jobs. Hoeever there are deprived pockets in some towns but it’s not widespread. Richer parents use the preps for 11 plus prep. It’s noticeable that many non grammars in Bucks have GCSE results better than comps elsewhere.

It’s long been the case that white British boys achieve least well. Not sure they get much targeted help but they would if pp is spent widely and they qualify for it.

@WomensRightsRenegade - what is the solution? Just took my DS out for a music lesson and passed a group of white working class boys roaming the streets on their bikes terrorising traffic in groups. It is pretty obvious why my DS got into grammar school and those kids didn’t. Didn’t see any Asian boys out at 12 doing similar. Their parents have money for bikes and hair cuts but not tutoring/music lessons. It’s about priorities.

Nice double standards. If it were any other group failing to be proportionately represented there would be an outcry, and endless measures put in place to increase ‘inclusion’ and ‘diversity’. No one, NO ONE, would dare talk about family/ cultural factors. And any honest broker would admit that’s true.

All talk would be of structural disadvantage and systems of oppression.

Take the issue of black maternal mortality as just one corollary. The only acceptable answer to this is ‘structural racism’. Any mention of cultural/ dietary issues is verboten. And so the problem persists.

Disingenuous reply. They are in a minority in almost all selective grammar schools and certainly in the super selectives

I always think it’s really hilarious when people say that Asian families value education more than white (presumably taken to mean indigenous British) families and therefore it’s ok that super selective grammars with no catchment areas end up being populated almost entirely by children from these backgrounds because their parents are prepared to invest mind-boggling time and money in prepping for tests, moving if successful etc. This becomes the new benchmark for valuing education and if you’re not prepared/ able to hit it, you have no chance and your child doesn’t deserve a shot at a grammar school. A boy in DS’s class was taken out of Y5 and home tutored in prep for QE for nearly the whole academic year. Missed getting a place by a few rankings. He’s now back in their class for Y6, as the 31st pupil, as his place was filled when he left. Fantastic outcome for the rest of the children and the teaching staff. This happens not infrequently in our area, when families relocate here because their son has got a place and a younger sibling needs a primary spot. The head apologises to parents but we get told that they have to accept the extra child - all the primaries take turns, basically.

I think Asian and Chinese families do value education more than other cultures. That’s not saying all cultures are like this as DM years ago tutored a Caribbean boy and a white (half German) girl, the girl for private school exams.

In my private school though I don’t recall the Asian and Chinese girls doing better than the Caucasian girls. One Muslim girl was allowed to study up to A level and thought she was going to uni then her parents sprang an arranged marriage onto her son uni was out.

Bucks is also a very rich area and hardly deprived on the whole, so educational attainment remains high by national standards.
You see the same in Tunbridge Wells, even if it is a complete grammar area. Money tends to breed high educational attainment regardless of type of school (grammar, comp, private).

@RunSlowTalkFastThere is a clear pecking order of non grammars in Bucks. They are definitely not all the same. Selection by CofE is top performing non grammar. Others by catchment.

The other point to note is that whilst some parents can control their kids schedules at 8-10 years of age, when they can still prep them for schools, a lot of the most selective grammar schools do cull at Sixth Form. When there is another round of entry with a lot of high achievers from other grammars, private schools and comprehensives. The kids who were too tutored/pushed but lack motivation innately usually end up leaving anyway. Parents can only push so much. Beyond a certain age, it has to come from the child anyway. I think a lot of white middle class British parents believe that and so in the end, it all works itself out anyway and is hardly anything to get too excited about. Especially if you live in an area with lots of good comprehensives too, like London. In London, the world is your oyster at 16 plus if you have good grades in hand from your GCSEs and the transport network supports it. People stuck in poorer performing comprehensives now with some means just tutor their kids for GCSEs instead, this is now very widespread.

Yep @Donttellempike

DS is in a London super selective grammar in year 7. Yes, a lot of Asian kids, but definitely more and more Chinese/HK now than previously. Previously mainly Indian. Lots of cliches, I know, but the level of music dropped off due to high percentage of Indians, but Chinese families tend to really value piano and violin, so I think it is a good thing. I think super selective grammars should offer more talent streams not just academics, but also art/sport/music/drama to balance things out a bit. So have a threshold test to pass but also aptitude tests for various things. I do not like the Government push on STEM and Maths for all. I think head teachers running schools with gifted kids should push back and widen the talent bar for entry to encompass different skills. They are allowed up to 10% in aptitude. I think if we want a future balanced economy, we need to value different types of jobs and skills. A lot of middle class Indian culture here is focussed on medicine/IT/Maths/Science. India itself though can be massively creative and has amazing writers/art/musicians too etc.

Do you? Have you met any? 😄

If we want to help white working-class pupils, we need to stop blaming hard-working students from other backgrounds, and realise that parental support, engagement and ambition are the distinguishing factors here, not some DEI conspiracy

Absolutely.

Yeah I live in Kent, the grammars are mostly not particularly elite as they take about 30% of kids but that's 30% of the most academic kids and the kids with the most involved, as ambitious, invested parents which obviously takes a large toll on the non grammars

This only applies to the grammars in and around the major cities I think, not your normal bog standard grammar in the counties. Good on these parents and children - they’re focused, hard working and the kids are respectful so there aren’t as many behavioural issues. Many white British parents are not prepared to put the work in or see the preparation as tantamount to child abuse. Fair enough too.

Once in, especially at the super selectives, the work goes at a cracking pace so kids do need to be hard working and motivated to keep up. They don’t suit everyone.

By the way a lot of these schools also have great extra curricular opportunities and great music and sporting opportunities. These children can do it all contrary to popular myth that it’s all hot housing and nothing else. They have the school support and parental support to access it all.

@treeowl Grammar schools are not all the same though. Super selectives are not the same as Bucks grammars. Some people have a strategy to get into them snd others are more laid back but in Bucks with 13 grammars, the other schools are not comprehensives. They are not sending dc to Oxbridge. Hampshire has their giant 6th form colleges and their system is entirely different. Bucks gets a higher % with A-A star at A level though. Many parents see the grammars as a holy grail but it’s because comps with full breadth of attainment are not available. Where there are super selectives like Devon, other schools are proper comps really.

They really do. OP is posting on another thread about paying £100 an hour for tutoring for top London prep schools. She may genuinely think that all comp parents are feckless with feral dc.

Some people on this thread seem to be of the opinion that unless you are tutoring kids to get into grammar you aren't bothered about education. Which is of course nonsense.

Thats because some think the only state alternative to a grammar is a school like in Adolescence.

In counties with no grammars such as Surrey and Hampshire, there are plenty of parents of all colours with dc in comps who are heavily invested in their dcs' education and the dc do very well. Getting into places like Imperial, Oxford, Warwick etc. Some people on this thread seem to be of the opinion that unless you are tutoring kids to get into grammar you aren't bothered about education. Which is of course nonsense.

Why would you?!

Many people from minorities look to find schools where their children would be in a more diverse mix and not the odd one out. Not sure why you think that mind set would be any different for white people.

My white kids are minorities at a superselective grammar in a very white area. We're Irish, so we're up there with the Chinese and Indians in terms of focus on education and parental support. This might not be a popular opinion, but if you want it more, you're more likely to get it.

DC is in the very minority white intake at their S London grammar, and it appears to get less diverse each year, dominated by S /SE Asians. Do I question the choice now for them - possibly as it doesn't represent their local area, some of these kids have massively unfair commutes. I know of a HK immigrant family who totally bought the system to get an in-borough place who's DC, when I asked them late Aug that year, didn't even know the name of the grammar school they got into as came over purely for exams the previous autumn, the house they bought was empty for months afterwards. I know of a S Asian heritage kid who was falling asleep in Y2 classes due to 11+ tuition. From lots of whatsapp chat and events chat a lot of the parents at DCs grammar have very poor English skills so these can only be 1st gen migrants. Everything is insanely results driven, DC has said more than once they are the only one not having continuous tuition after school, the work ethic of these families is astonishing compared to what I see to white families but I think to the detriment of their wellbeing. However, they are trained to pass the exams so the schools continue to be dominated by those that study most, pushed by parents who think educational attainment is the key to everything.

Why not, if it was the best school in your town?