My child is in constant trouble at school but good at home. What to do.

Here we have a young person who was fine at primary school and is fine at home, but is not fine at his secondary school and has not been from the start. Let's join the dots here ...... this school is something he cannot cope with.

Lots of children cannot cope with secondary school, which is a social construct rather than a natural milieu for a young person.

You have options:

• more discussion with the school as to where exactly the problems lie
• pressing for some action over these problems
• looking at alternative ways of educating him

He may be one of these people who will fit better into a college setting when the time comes, or gain from an apprenticeship. There is more than one way to receive an education. His current setting is clearly not right for him.

It is of course very irritating for teachers to have a pupil in the class who is disruptive, but once a child is labelled in this way it sets up expectations in the teacher (who is then harder on that pupil than others) and also in the pupil (who feels he has an image to maintain).

It may be he has gone as far as he can in this setting and needs to have other options considered.

But my rule in these situations (when working for CAMHS) was start with the school and not the child. If the child is fine in other settings then look at the setting first.

Well done, OP.
It does sound as though moving him into different Maths and French class might be a good solution. It's not clear if the problem is those particular teachers or the group of kids in those classes, but breaking up a disruptive group of kids seems like a good idea regardless!
I'm glad the school are finally listening.

🙄

All you have done is given him a free pass to behave badly. He now knows that his French and Maths teachers won't sanction his poor behaviour and that if he gets in trouble it's because of negativity or not understanding. Your son's chatting and poor behaviour impacts on other people's learning and enjoyment. You are kidding yourself.

Well done!!!!
hope it continues and please continue pressing the school to treat this seriously and not to revert to their old ways (the fact they not responded for a while is very bad… don’t be afraid to escalate to the headteacher / even Ofsted to get them moving)

I've just read pretty much the whole thread and I'm almost tearing up, op I think you're doing an amazing job taking onboard all the advice you had and advocating for your son.

Secondary teacher here. Sounds as if he's disengaging and needs your reassurance / support ... But that you're not 100% up for this: 'I'm now at a point where I have told the school to stop contacting me unless he is rude/ bullying.'

It's low level disruption. They'll be some teachers who know how to deal with this and build the relationship (hopefully, I'm one of those) and others who just find it frustrating and exhausting. The thing is, when you're taking it to the face 5 hours a day, everyone gets a bit grumpy.

Is there a system of trusted adults at the school? Does your son have a supportive Head of Year? What about his form tutor?

To be fair, it sounds as if you're on the right track and communicating well with your kid but that maybe you both need to find a teacher / member of staff who you (both) feel has their back. It sounds as if they're unsupported and testing boundaries - in other words, not 100% safe.

At the end of the day, your DS is a child and some of his teachers seem to have forgotten the simple fact that they need to meet their needs.

He sounds a bit like my son, who is on the ADHD pathway (he's ten).
For ADHD kids, having a good relationship with the adults in their life is crucial. If they think someone doesn't like them, they will either give up or mess around or be deliberately combative.
My son got like this with his first piano teacher - he'd bang his hands on the keys instead of listening to constructive criticism, refuse to come downstairs etc. He could tell how much this behaviour stressed the teacher out and felt rejected, so his behaviour got worse.
We moved teachers and I spelled out all his issues very clearly so she knew what to expect. He still messes around in piano lessons but it's so much better than it was and he's sitting his grade one next month.
On the other hand, his year five teacher spent parents evenings telling me having him in her class was one of the things that got her out of bed in the mornings, she loved him so much.
I also wonder if it's worth looking at less strict schools. A fresh start where he doesn't feel rejected might be just what he needs.

I just want to give you a different perspective... I was the near perfect teenager at home; respectful, polite, helpful, rarely moaned, stuck to most of the rules etc, but at school I could be like your son.
I was incredibly academic (left school with 8A*s, 2As and a B in GCSE), but in certain lessons I could be a complete dick. And like your son, in other lessons I could be wonderful. It totally depended on the teacher and if they had done something that I thought was unjust once, I'd basically just give up in that lesson and give them a hard time. Sometimes it was just because I was bored because the work was really easy. Same sort of things as your son: low level disruption, bit of back chat. Nothing awful and I have no idea why I did it really and feel quite remorseful for it now as an adult, as I'm sure the teachers were lovely people who just deserved to do their job without putting up with me! The more negative they were with me though, the less I tried and the more I messed around, which obviously became a bit of a vicious circle.
What would have probably helped break that would have been the opportunity to skip those lessons and go to the SEN hub things they have. My kids are autistic and I definitely have traits of both autism and ADHD, but back in those days if you were academic and reasonably well behaved you just got on with it.
Sounds like you're doing a great job of supporting your son. School need to try something different - perhaps instead of jumping straight to sanctions they could offer him time out to have a walk around and burn off some energy. It sounds like he needs to know that there are people at school that are on his side, which is proven by the fact that he gets on well in certain lessons with certain teachers. In my experience with SEN kids, some teachers just understand and some never will.

TBH this is exactly how I would expect that kind of thing to go, and it's why I wouldn't do it. I totally get why you did, so this is not judgement. Just a good illustration of why it can sometimes be counterproductive to seek "proof" that they "really can't help it" - the fact that other kids are not doing it to this level is a big enough sign, IMO. Statistically what are the chances that this one kid who isn't sticking to it is actually THAT bad that they would deliberately disrupt everything - for what gain? vs the chances that they are actually struggling with something e.g. ADHD which is relatively common - about 5% of the population, and if there is family history (of either ADHD or ASD, apparently) you can up that to about 20-30% chance, any immediate family members diagnosed more like 50%.

As a teacher, I can attest to the fact that low level disruption is the worst. He’s probably showing off to his friends.
really bad behaviour usually stems from a need or vulnerability. Low level attitude and back chat stems from attitude and lack of consideration (most of the time) you need to step it up a bit.
it’s also his age. Y7-8 are known as the wasted years because they learn really nothing new and their attitude and behaviour in general is awful. But teachers can’t just ignore it. Support them which means you’re supporting him.

We’ve been through this (both very experienced teachers at Senior Leadership level). I wish we had paid for a private assessment when it first occurred to me that it was ADHD, as we did this in Year 11 when we were at the end of our tethers and he scored almost 100% in all areas, I really felt we’d let him down. School thought he was doing it all on purpose, but since then I’ve done a huge deep dive into RSD, and this sounds like your son too. With an ADHD diagnosis, it’s not an excuse, but it is a reason, and therefore he does not need to feel like a failure, but knows there’s a reason and can take steps to navigate around the issues. Our son ended up being so unhappy at school for almost all of his time at secondary, yet really happy outside of school. I regret not listening to my instincts, and chasing the school when I first suggested ADHD in Year 7 & 8.
There are some fantastic resources around to help you as parents, and the good news is that if it is this, he will feel supported by you and grateful that you have been able to help.

He sounds lovely. My boy gets sanction points every now and then (not loads to be fair but his school is pretty easy going for a grammar). I just let it go. I think you probably caused this anxiety by giving him such a hard time about them to start with. Now you need to stop feeding him the message that he's wrong all the time and focus on getting him to stay engaged. Loads of brilliant people are not naturally good at conforming. Teach him strategies for coping with the unfair
and reassure him that out of school life is pretty different but he's got to earn his respect in the workplace. If he's clever try an apprenticeship instead of more schooling.

My own son was a PITA in secondary too but no problem at all outside school in his various sporting clubs and his County chess team or at home. School phoned so often they were on my friends and family list on the landline phone bill. He had detentions every single day it made no odds.
He easily passed all his GCSEs and went on to sixth form where he behaved marginally better largely because there were fewer subjects he hated and he didn't have to be in full time but he didn't do much work. He was given unconditional offers for uni but turned them down as he was bored stiff of studying and left to work at 18. His employer funded his degree and Masters that he did on day release alongside a full time role, a part time role for experience and tutoring Maths to his colleagues' teens.
He's now a managing partner in a very successful global business and has fond memories of school for his friends, a few teachers and the chaos he caused. He advises other teens who have similar struggles "Do enough to get you to the next stage in your life and pursue your passions around that". The biggest satisfaction for him is knowing he earns 3 times the salary, 20 years younger than the teachers who called him lazy.

Re-timetable the entire school for one student? Clearly, you are not involved with this process 🤣

Speak with the SENDCO, but be prepared that you might not get any answers. It could be processing time, but as this is only evident in some classes that does suggest there is more choice here with behaviour. Some teachers may prefer 'think pair shares' and plan speaking time into lessons which he prefers, some teachers will assess in different ways and want silence, which it sounds like he will struggle with.
Even if he does get diagnosed, SEND students are still not disrupting lessons because they have additional needs. Strategies are put into place to help them manage these needs. I suggest you look at ADHD strategies to help him, as chatting and being disruptive is not fair on the rest of his class and takes away from their learning time

Sounds so much like my friends son - he has been in trouble since day 1 for being chatty / answering back etc. The bad news is just a few months into year 7 he’s being labelled as the naughty kid as he’s already had loads of detentions and been in isolation. My son is honestly just as chatty as him - both have ADHD and in primary my son was always balancing on the line between chatty / cheeky. My son has managed to keep his head down and just has a couple of warnings for chatting. He does however do A LOT of sport. When he doesn’t do sport his behaviour deteriorates. At school he eats lunch quickly and then is out playing football (getting all that energy out). He walks to and from school every day. He has sports (swimming, football and running ) every night after school. It’s a shame your boy has stopped football as it does sound like ADHD and in my experience with boys sport really does help. Maybe find another sport - or the gym (something not competitive if he doesn’t want that - although being part of a team is great).

Definitely needs to be assessed by school. Really surprised they haven't already. In my son’s school there is another boy in his class if it’s all getting a bit much he can just go to learning hub to calm down - so isn’t disrupting the class but also not getting in trouble / getting detentions. Good luck. It’s great he’s still talking to you about everything - keep that up x

I came on to say exactly this, once a kid has started this it’s almost impossible to stop. Most parents would be horrified by the way their ‘perfectly behaved at home’ child behaves in school. It doesn’t make him a bad kid at all, and teachers won’t see him as such. But low level disruption has to be tackled (I know you haven’t suggested it doesn’t) and so he’s in conflict with what he is supposed to do and what his peers expect of him. This would explain the stress.
It may improve as he matures or it may continue and affect his GCSEs. The bottom line is he just needs to get his head down and get on, he’ll have your support constantly but you can’t do anything to change the situation because only he can do that.

I agree with previous advice about seating arrangements, perhaps moving class away from friends, but at the end of the day if he can’t change then I’d look at moving schools so he can have a fresh start, socially.

Good behaviour at home rarely correlates with the behaviour seen at school because the expectations are so different. But it does show that you’re raising a respectful and decent young man who knows what he should do but struggles to do it. Please stick with the teachers and their sanctions, it’s the only way he’ll accept he needs to change. Low level disruption is the worst in a classroom, it makes it so hard to teach the class and ruins relationships between students and teachers. It then gets written off as a ‘personality class’ etc which then reinforces to the child that their behaviour is acceptable. No one wins in that situation. Don’t choose GCSE subjects based on the teacher, they leave/change focus/approach classes and expectations differently according to the situation.

Also re homeschooling- you can get tutors to actually teach him, you don’t have to quit your job. If you considered a private school it can be a temporary option if

I second, or third, seeking a SENCO consult. He sounds like me - and both of my kids. Talkative and charming is a great reframing of ADHD - talking over others, butting in, lack of impulse control (can’t manage to be quiet or wait turns) are all classic features of ADHD. It feels benign, but it is disruptive in a classroom (or work) setting and leads to irritation in those around him or, worse, real resentment which will ultimately undermine his self esteem.

I would have him assessed because if ADHD is an issue, his school will work with him rather than issue sanctions all day and he can have mentor support, access to medication if you/he want to explore that, and he can develop strategies and tools to manage -in particular - the compulsive/impulsive talking that is clearly perceived as a negative behavioural issue at school.

To be honest this sounds like too much and if he is anxious all these petty rules won't help.

I would seriously investigate other options - even if they are seen as having a less good reputation.

The school nearest me who has the best GCSE results and progress also has the highest exclusion rate in the county.

A different school where there's less pressure over tiny things would likely be a better fit. I guess ( due to commutes?) you are rural so this can be really tricky but I would try any way I could to make it work. Could he be dropped at a train station and get a train to school?

When I was training to teach, one of my lecturers said there are two types of consistently disruptive students - those who can "help" it and can avoid misbehaviour if they really try, and those who genuinely can't do it for whatever underlying reason.

I would offer him say £50 or something he really wants if he can attend school for a week and avoid getting a detention. Maybe you've already done this, and I do accept it is a lot of money! But if you haven't it is arguably a good test for you to know whether there is something underlying that means he can't actually manage it.

I do think anxiety in boys especially can come out like this - I have had students before who sort of have to say every thought they have about the work out loud, and check in multiple times about the work - they just sort of blurt it out without thinking. If they are also quite loud it can be disruptive and means other, quieter students don't get support. But they'll often feel like they can't start a task until they have checked in with me - it's a fine balance.

Students can also be lovely and personable and disruptive. It may also be worse in certain classes because he may also feel pressure to show off to his friends etc.

Given he is quitting hobbies etc, I would talk to him about how he is feeling and perhaps take him to the GP to investigate his mental health.

Ultimately though he does need to try and resolve this before GCSE - what if he gets a teacher he doesn't like for maths/English/science?