Please or to access all these features

Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Dame Alice Owen's School - sibling policy?

159 replies

GlassMatryoshka · 21/10/2025 13:15

Dame Alice Owen's School (DAO) is very much an anomaly in many respects. Amongst other things, it seems quite odd to me that a secondary school with such a competitive intake, with a good number of students commuting in from some distance away, would also have a sibling policy.

So if I could have the temerity to ask: Should DAO rethink its sibling policy?

Before responding, may I please ask that you put yourself in the mind of someone responsible for high-level policy making decisions and NOT from the point of view of someone with a vested interest, i.e. a parent with multiple DCs. Of course parents with more than one child would say it needs to be kept for a host of individual reasons - this should be patently obvious.

If I could ask that this question is considered in the broadest possible terms - both for the longer term view and in the greater scheme of things.

OP posts:
GlassMatryoshka · 31/10/2025 01:05

LemonTreeGrove · 30/10/2025 14:23

I guess the dc who get in via aptitude tests have had to compete with siblings too, for their family to get a look in.
If you had a dc get in via the test, would you still be against the sibling policy if your eldest has a sibling?

Yes. My answer would be the same whether my DC were in or out, one DC or more. Thanks for asking :)

OP posts:
GlassMatryoshka · 31/10/2025 01:04

GravyBoatWars · 29/10/2025 18:57

And @GlassMatryoshka, talking about eleven-year-olds living in lifelong ignominy is both slightly offensive and makes it difficult to take you seriously. No eleven year old is disgraced by where they go to school, including the ones who follow an older sibling like a massive number of children do each year. Eleven-year-olds do not "fail to pull their weight" when it comes to school admissions and the vast majority of this country doesn't earn a place at their school at all. There is nothing more or less virtuous or shameful about getting a place based on a sibling criteria, based on where your parents can afford and choose to live, or by doing well on a test.

But I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you're not just trying to be deliberately provocative. Why do you (seem to) think that there is something inherently more fair about children being allocated a place based on where their parents buy or rent a home than based on where their older sibling went to school?

I appreciate your tolerance of my admittedly long-windedness.

My starting frame of reference is via the academic places. I've now noted that I am a parent with a DC who will be going down that route. I thus carry the weaknesses and biases that may come with this. My use of the phrase, "the quiet cloud of personal ignominy" was my own personal take on it, in the specific context of those who go down the route for the test places. Am I not entitled to voicing my own personal opinion?

This was not at all meant as a "marker of disgrace" for anyone other than myself. Of course, I do not wish these feelings on anybody. Particularly for the countless families not going down any test-based route, which I agree is normal and very right for normal comps. And I do acknowledge that the limited nature of this kind of discussion doesn't do much more than nibble around the edges of far bigger problems. But I can see that my regrettable use of the word "ignominy" has had some deleterious effects and for this, I sincerely apologise.

I'll try to answer your other question re parents moving in versus sibling places -

To begin with, my focus has solely been on this specific school. I am not here to discuss the wider school system across the country. My position remains unchanged in that this is not an ordinary or typical school.

With regard to parents buying or renting a home to get into DAO, I didn't say I thought this was fair. I said it was understandable how these places were "earned". Parents who have money can simply use that money; this is expected in a market economy. I don't have that kind of money myself, but I see no need to be bitter about others having it.

With regard to the sibling places, this is an institutionalised practice whose function is to support local neighbourhood comps (and very understandably so). Perhaps DAO was a school like that in the past. But I don't think anyone can say that with a knowledgeably straight face today. So I question its current fitness-for-purpose as well as the suitability of arguments such as, "This is just how it is for comps." Because, well, it's not.

And given the money that keeps flowing in, those parents' elbows will continue to get sharper every year. I actually think a more productive question, which may be a subset of this, is how should the DAO foundation be distributing its annual endowments? This money is a huge part of what has made the school into what it is today and if/as continued, I imagine will only make questions on equitability grow louder.

Given how vocal you have been on this thread, (to which I very much welcome,) perhaps you would like to share what your stake in this is and thus your frame of reference? I've stated mine. It may help the discussion to know. We may not always agree, and that is perfectly fine. But at least we can try to understand each other better.

OP posts:
GlassMatryoshka · 31/10/2025 01:00

Lamarais · 29/10/2025 18:51

You have a lot of thoughts! And you can mull over this until the cows come home, but ultimately, this is their admissions policy, and clearly, it works for them. Despite having a lot of sibling places, their academic results are amongst the best in the country. Some selective schools have a sibling policy, others don't. If you don't agree with their sibling policy, that is understandable, but getting into the nitty gritty of exactly why it doesn't suit your preferences isn't going to change the fact that this is just how it is, and you have the option of going for an academic place regardless or focusing energies elsewhere.

It's of course not lost on us that our eldest has put in the work to get a place at DAO next year and our youngest will get a sibling place, and we have offered extra praise for this. You say that if you were the younger sibling you would feel guilty to gain a place in such a way, but you have that perspective as an emotionally mature adult - its highly unlikely that a younger sibling (aged 9 or younger) would fully understand what an elder sibling gaining an academic place means for them and their future education. Having siblings at the same school is a huge benefit to families with more than one child - I for one hope the policy doesn't change!

My hearty congratulations on your DC scoring highly enough to get a place at DAO! If your DC and subsequent DCs go to DAO, I really wish them and you all the best.

I am sure there are very many DAO parents such as you who feel great relief at not having to 11+ again. I don't blame any of you at all and I completely respect this. I've been helping my DC with the prep and I know it is a right pain.

My DC and I liked DAO on our visit and hence why we are now trying. From my perspective however, (and you and others here will probably think I am crazy for saying this,) if I had a DC2, I would not appreciate that DAO would have pre-guaranteed DC2's place for me.

My helping my DC with the prep, for me, is an expression of love for my child. I value this time more than I value getting into the school itself. (Not saying it hasn't been hair-pulling at times!) If I had a DC2, and assuming DC2 was equally capable, I would want them to have the same opportunity at that love (with all its specifically unique ups and downs) which I gave to DC1. I know first hand that this wouldn't be easy in the slightest, but I would also be very conscious of the long term message it would send if I precluded them from this without giving them any say in the matter.

Perhaps I am overthinking it and I am a wacky outlier to have these views. This is just me and my perspective only. In the same way that I respect how you view this process, I hope you (and others) can also respect mine.

OP posts:
GlassMatryoshka · 31/10/2025 00:59

SheilaFentiman · 29/10/2025 18:09

But neither the sibling (current) nor the nearest (your hypothetical scenario) child “ousted” the 66th academically inclined child. The fact that there are only 65 aptitude places “ousted” them.

So it’s not clear to me why you see one as a source of grievance but not the other.

Edited

I think I explained in my post, "SCENARIO1: The "Coat-tail Rider""

But I'd be happy to try to explain again?

OP posts:
wisteriawhite · 30/10/2025 20:09

Ok, got it! Thanks for explaining.

SheilaFentiman · 30/10/2025 20:07

Nailed it @GravyBoatWars

GravyBoatWars · 30/10/2025 19:59

wisteriawhite · 30/10/2025 19:46

Ah ok - but does it go above 65 on test results, once all the sibling and all other criteria places are filled? I could just appreciate that it’s annoying if there would have been, say, 150 spaces available for the most academic, but then 85 siblings take up those spaces, if you see what I mean!

No. Here are the oversubscription criteria in order after those with EHCPs naming the school are allocated their spots.

  1. LAC and previously LAC
  2. The 22 applicants who live closest to the school
  3. Siblings of students at the school at the time of application, excluding any students who joined at 6th form, plus twins and triplets of successful applicants in the current year
  4. Up to 10 students based on music aptitude. Siblings meeting criteria 4 cannot apply for these spots and applicants must live in specified catchment areas.
  5. Up to 65 students based on academic aptitude. Siblings meeting criteria 4 cannot apply for these spots and applicants must live in specified catchment areas.
  6. Children of staff
  7. All other applicants based on closest distance to the school.

There have never been so many siblings that 65 aptitude places weren't offered.

If they eliminate or restrict the places offered under the sibling criteria it would increase the number of places offered under criteria 7 and possibly 6, not aptitude places.

And under current laws the school cannot increase the number of aptitude places in their oversubscription criteria.

SheilaFentiman · 30/10/2025 19:52

wisteriawhite · 30/10/2025 19:46

Ah ok - but does it go above 65 on test results, once all the sibling and all other criteria places are filled? I could just appreciate that it’s annoying if there would have been, say, 150 spaces available for the most academic, but then 85 siblings take up those spaces, if you see what I mean!

No. There are a maximum of 65 places for academic ability. Any left over places after all other criteria are allocated on distance.

wisteriawhite · 30/10/2025 19:46

Ah ok - but does it go above 65 on test results, once all the sibling and all other criteria places are filled? I could just appreciate that it’s annoying if there would have been, say, 150 spaces available for the most academic, but then 85 siblings take up those spaces, if you see what I mean!

SheilaFentiman · 30/10/2025 19:33

@wisteriawhite sure, but there are 65 places for the academically able, and that number doesn’t change if the other places are allocated by distance, siblings, whatever criteria. A sibling doesn’t “take up” an academic spot, they are in a different group.

Obviously if there were more than 120 siblings in one year or something, then the number of selective spots might have to be reduced in that year, but I don’t think this has ever happened (willing to be corrected if wrong)

wisteriawhite · 30/10/2025 19:29

I guess the point is - and what the original OP was probably getting at - it’s a little annoying if you have one child you are desperate to get into the school and having to do a lot of tutoring or music practice to get a place, but the siblings take priority over your child, whatever happens (if I’ve understood the admissions system correctly). It’s not really a fair system on that front, unlike the fully selective schools like Henrietta Barnett or Latymer.

PinkPanther57 · 30/10/2025 18:35

SheilaFentiman · 30/10/2025 18:18

Mmm - and DAO was at 90 academically selective places, it went down to the current 65 at the end of the 90s.

effectively bar many of children of ex pupils getting places themselves

You mentioned this before, which I do find curious - no state school has a parental preference. Even if a parent is still in their childhood home, catchment/last distance admitted changes can mean their kids wouldn’t go to their school even without any selective testing places

Edited

I think poss less pressure on places then?

There were effectively feeder primaries & those who wanted to, largely got in from what I could tell across ability spectrum. Out of PB but surrounding villages, Owens was one of a number of good schools (?) amongst Goffs, not long ago a Grammar in early-mid 80s, Chancellors. Etc. All with similar reputations. Were catchments wider?

Owens become more selective than others (?) & knock on effect, school du jour?

Anyway, no real skin in game but policy change interesting. It did feel in days of yore locals got kids to desired Comp by & large.

SheilaFentiman · 30/10/2025 18:18

Mmm - and DAO was at 90 academically selective places, it went down to the current 65 at the end of the 90s.

effectively bar many of children of ex pupils getting places themselves

You mentioned this before, which I do find curious - no state school has a parental preference. Even if a parent is still in their childhood home, catchment/last distance admitted changes can mean their kids wouldn’t go to their school even without any selective testing places

Trallers · 30/10/2025 18:18

If I was put in charge of school admissions policy and had no skin in the game as a parent (I do have multiple children, but I'm trying to think outside of that for a moment), I would allow siblings. The reason being I value the idea of the school having a relationship with that family, whether they have 1,2,3, or more children. It feels like a more holistic and healthy approach to education to me. In addition, I think it is good for each student if their parents are not split across multiple secondaries, so it's really not just about making the parents' lives easier. When the parents are able to have a good relationship with one school, their child or children can only benefit from that. For me, that goes above just exam results, although I can see how hard that would be for number 66. But the cut off has to go somewhere for some reason.

PinkPanther57 · 30/10/2025 17:51

SheilaFentiman · 30/10/2025 17:26

That would be John Major!

Partial selection was introduced in some grant-maintained schools during the final years of the Conservative government led by John Major.[3] Grant-maintained status was introduced by the Education Reform Act 1988, and gave such schools control over their own admissions. Circular 6/93 permitted these schools to select up to 10% of their intake on the basis of ability or aptitude in music, art, drama or sport. Circular 6/96 permitted more selection. By 1997, over 40 schools were selecting up to 50% of pupils.

[Under Labour] the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 permitted selection of up to 10% by aptitude for certain subjects for which a school is a specialist college (section 102), and also permitted the retention of partial selection that existed prior to the 1997 entry, provided that the proportion selected was no higher than that in 1997

Edited

Fascinating, thanks. ‘By 1997 over 40 schools were selecting up to 50 per cent of pupils’. Wow.

Schools like Owens then effectively could effectively rid themselves of less able & effectively bar many of children of ex pupils getting places themselves. Not really the ethos of the Comprehensive & against grain/point of Grammars being abolished in first place. The pendulum swung back other way.

SheilaFentiman · 30/10/2025 17:26

That would be John Major!

Partial selection was introduced in some grant-maintained schools during the final years of the Conservative government led by John Major.[3] Grant-maintained status was introduced by the Education Reform Act 1988, and gave such schools control over their own admissions. Circular 6/93 permitted these schools to select up to 10% of their intake on the basis of ability or aptitude in music, art, drama or sport. Circular 6/96 permitted more selection. By 1997, over 40 schools were selecting up to 50% of pupils.

[Under Labour] the School Standards and Framework Act 1998 permitted selection of up to 10% by aptitude for certain subjects for which a school is a specialist college (section 102), and also permitted the retention of partial selection that existed prior to the 1997 entry, provided that the proportion selected was no higher than that in 1997

PinkPanther57 · 30/10/2025 17:11

SheilaFentiman · 30/10/2025 17:04

I think schools which take up to 10% of their students on a specific aptitude test are not defined as 'partially selective' Chancellor's has a music aptitude test now for 10%.

Interesting. Thanks. What drove the policy change towards specific aptitude tests etc? Quite a sea change from the fully comp ideology & how things stood until approx early 90s (?)

SheilaFentiman · 30/10/2025 17:04

PinkPanther57 · 30/10/2025 16:59

Thank you.

Is Goffs partially selective now then too? This wasn’t case in the past.

I think schools which take up to 10% of their students on a specific aptitude test are not defined as 'partially selective' Chancellor's has a music aptitude test now for 10%.

PinkPanther57 · 30/10/2025 16:59

bruffin · 30/10/2025 16:54

Goffs do an aptitude test based on language, and feeder schools are part of the admissions policy

Thank you.

Is Goffs partially selective now then too? This wasn’t case in the past.

bruffin · 30/10/2025 16:54

PinkPanther57 · 29/10/2025 13:40

Definitely wasn’t selective pre GCSE in 88/89. Some pupils didn’t do O level at all only CSE. Forms were divided into: D,O,W - upper band & E,N,S - lower band. They apparently reversed this every year to prevent any stigma. Pupils knew of course but good intent.

It seems this has all been forgotten & seems to have been a much fairer system? At least you could be virtually sure of a place if your child wanted to go & attended a local primary whatever their ability. I thought a real shame & unfair those who attended themselves often couldn’t get own kids in apparently.

I know of Goffs School - a comp in Goffs Oak, not far away, was once a Grammar & forced via Govt legislation to change to fully comp in late (?) 70s approx. Poss pre Thatcher Govt. Popular with Local families as still had the reputation & results of a Grammar for a good few years & dined out on that.

I wonder if Owens was forced to go fully comp on relocation to PB & keen to revert back to a Grammar eventually in all but name? If it had stayed fully Comp all these concerns of OP null & void. It was once simply a fab Comp that served its community.

Goffs do an aptitude test based on language, and feeder schools are part of the admissions policy

LemonTreeGrove · 30/10/2025 14:23

I guess the dc who get in via aptitude tests have had to compete with siblings too, for their family to get a look in.
If you had a dc get in via the test, would you still be against the sibling policy if your eldest has a sibling?

SheilaFentiman · 30/10/2025 11:22

@Araminta1003 it doesn't look like they are hugely stringent, on paper.

https://sites.google.com/damealiceowens.herts.sch.uk/daos6thtransition/guide-to-courses?authuser=0

bruffin · 30/10/2025 11:17

ButtonMushrooms · 29/10/2025 20:38

If I was a younger sibling, knowing my older sibling worked their butt off to get in...

Honestly I think you may be overthinking a bit here @GlassMatryoshka. My DC are at a partially selective school (not DAO), the eldest got in on the aptitude test and the other two got sibling places. As far as I know the younger ones don't give it a second thought! They've certainly never mentioned it.

My DS and and 2 friends got into a school with aptitude for STEM, there were 4 siblings that followed and it was not an issue for any of them.

Araminta1003 · 30/10/2025 10:36

Does DAO have stringent GCSE points requirements to stay on for Sixth Form? As it is usually at that point that academically weaker siblings may get caught out.

ButtonMushrooms · 29/10/2025 20:38

If I was a younger sibling, knowing my older sibling worked their butt off to get in...

Honestly I think you may be overthinking a bit here @GlassMatryoshka. My DC are at a partially selective school (not DAO), the eldest got in on the aptitude test and the other two got sibling places. As far as I know the younger ones don't give it a second thought! They've certainly never mentioned it.

Swipe left for the next trending thread