Would you start attending church to get your child into a C of E secondary?

Well I go to church anyway because I want to, but I see nothing wrong at all in attending church for this purpose. The school places are not specifically reserved for Christians they are reserved for people who meet the specific criteria of being in that building at a specified frequency across a specified timeframe, regardless of belief. The church and the school aren't doing anything wrong either - most CofE schools were founded as charities before the government decided to fund universal state education, and were founded specifically to educate the children of the parish. When the government decided to institute free universal education they had a choice to either buy existing schools and start running them as secular establishments or to incorporate them into the system to allow church families to keep doing what they were already doing, expanding their capacity where appropriate and building other schools wherever the church schools didn't already cover. Buying all the buildings from the charities that founded them would have been hideously expensive even if the charities were willing to sell.

It's not any kind of malevolence that has led to those church schools tending to have better results than secular, and it's not misuse of public funds. Churchgoers children are just as entitled to a state education as anyone else. If there's any kind of hoops to jump through to get a place at a particular school, then that school is going to have an above-average population of pupils from families who have a culture of doing what it takes to achieve something they want, and a lower-than-average population of pupils from families that don't give a shit and don't value education. It makes no odds whether the criteria used are about church attendance or musical aptitude or even getting together the organisation skills to get your child to take a "fair banding" test. It's the fact that some kind of effort is required that makes the difference. If you can be bothered to make the effort to do what it takes to meet the criteria then go ahead.

However, do make sure the school is actually right for your child. Just having great GCSE results is not enough, and some church schools embed religious practices into the school day in a way that a secular child may not enjoy.

I am not aware of powerful lobbies claiming that this is right and that the disabled deserve no support.

@ParentOfOne you might not mean for it to come across this way, but this is utterly dismissive and wrong. Large swathes of society see nothing wrong with discriminating against disabled people.

Yes and did. For primary and secondary. The secondary was a complete disappointment and the most unchristian place I have ever encountered. We moved them after two years.

@flawlessflipper I understand that many parents have had to sue their councils for not providing the support they should supposedly provide. But, equally, I am not aware of powerful lobbies claiming that this is right and that the disabled deserve no support.

But I don't know a lot about the topic. I didn't mean to offend you nor to sound dismissive. Maybe you can help me understand what you meant?

No because our local church schools both have a terrible reputation. Funnily enough as they are never full they will take anyone regardless of church attendance (or faith).

You obviously don’t have disabled DC.

@flawlessflipper I have no doubt that disabled people are victims of all kinds of discrimination.

The difference is that I am not aware of many situations which are comparable to the discrimination of faith schools.

It is one thing to say that a certain category is discriminated.
Quite another to have that discrimination coded in writing in the policies which determine who can access certain services, and to have people shouting that that discrimination is just and fair, like religious fruitcakes do for faith schools

We would never accept anyone advocating open blatant discrimination (in services funded with everyone's taxes!) on any other kind of protected characteristic.

Whatever anyone’s views about faith schools, you can’t seriously think ^this is the case. Disabled people are openly discriminated against every day.

@BunfightBetty why does religion always get a free pass??

We would never accept anyone advocating open blatant discrimination (in services funded with everyone's taxes!) on any other kind of protected characteristic.

We would not accept discrimination based on the colour of the skin, the ethnicity, political views, etc.

You want all taxpayers to fund schools which are then not open to all. No, I will not apologise for calling out this discriminatory behaviour.

What is shameful is that there are morally bankrupt despicable individuals who advocate this discrimination, not that other people call it out.

There are other schools available that are not religious. And for CofE schools at least, in addition to the foundation places offered to those who attend church, there are also open places available. Children of lots of other faiths and none can - and do - attend CofE schools, the idea there is 'segregation' is laughable. If you were to hang around outside our local CofE schools you would see children and parents of all colours and faiths.

If you don't believe there should be faith schools, why complain of discrimination relating to the entry criteria? If you don't want your children to go to one, why complain they don't meet the criteria, when you could, if you wish, have chosen otherwise, so they did? Why would you want your child to go to such a school if you're not of the faith and don't believe faith schools should exist? "I don't think faith schools should exist, but I'm annoyed not everyone can attend one" seems like an odd attitude to me.

Yes, and as I've said, I don't think there is anything wrong with OP attending church to get her child into school under the current system.

That does not make it a just system.

The facts are the facts. State money is being used to discriminate against and segregate children based on the religion of their parents, with an indirect impact that it also discriminates disproportionately against the less well off.

Some of us find that quite reprehensible.

(And that's not getting into the "lots of other options" statement which is frankly laughable.)

Only morally bankrupt despicable individuals welcome discrimination based on religion. You are one such person so, no, I will not calm down. Again, shame on you.

One reason I might feel shame for my actions is if was ever so lacking in manners, morals, emotional maturity and emotional regulation skills as to attack somebody this rudely and aggressively for a difference of opinion. You are intemperate and ill-mannered. Quite shameful for any adult to behave in this way.

@BunfightBetty You're right, I shouldn't have implied all church schools do this. But if I want my children to go to my local school, they would have to attend Anglican church three or four times a month and both my closest Anglican schools are explicit that ill health will not be accepted as a reason for non attendance. A Methodist family who attend church every week will not get a place at my local school because of the number of atheist parents who attend weekly because they believe it's the only way to get their child into a decent school.
Every practising Christian I know in Liverpool says this system makes it harder to build functioning faith communities. Every atheist family would rather be doing something else with their Sundays. Yet here we are.

@BunfightBetty also no, not everything flows from the faith. Schools must teach British values, even when they clash with the backward values of certain religions, like opposition to same sex marriage.
Schools cnsnot teach creationism. Etc

Some faith schools require baptism.
And no, there aren't always plenty of other options. Not always. It varies hugely.

@BunfightBetty that education is a fundamental service to be provided by the state, and that the state should not discriminate based on religion, is a fundamental value of mine and of a big part of the Western world, where the abomination which exists here would rightly be unconstitutional.

Everyone pays for state schools, but abiut a third of those discriminate based on religion.

This is an undeniable fact.

You refuse to answer on the comparison vs hospitals. So I can only infer that deep down you understand that discrimination is wrong but don't want to admit it.

How much education is rooted in religious values is debatable. Do Christian schools teach a different maths literature etc? Oh, wait, maybe they teach kindness... As opposed to what? Do you think non faith schools teach how to rape and steal?

Regardless, that is a moot point.

Only morally bankrupt despicable individuals welcome discrimination based on religion. You are one such person so, no, I will not calm down. Again, shame on you.

The point is not whether the state pays more for a faith school than for a non faith school. The point is that everyone's taxes pay for a fundamental service which is not open to all but discriminates based on religion.

They do now as it is undersubscribed due to the demographic crash and has been for a couple of years. This was not the case 10 years ago when my DC were going and parents from the local town (10 miles away) who fancied a naice village school were attending church to jump the queue. So all the villagers were forced to do the same, regardless of their faith or lack thereof.

But presumably all kids get in to the CofE school if it’s the only state option?

You’re wrong about church schools not accepting illness as a reason for lower attendance, as often they do, and the vicar can take it into account when confirming your attendance. Plus many church schools require only fortnightly attendance, not weekly. And it doesn’t have to be on a Sunday, it can be midweek.

If you move church or area during the qualifying period you just need to ask the vicar from the first church to tell the vicar at the second church that you have been attending. They’re used to doing this, you won’t be the first.

Where I live the only other options to CofE 🏫 at infants and juniors are home ed or the local independent school (which is strict Catholic and £8,000 per term). That’s not ‘lots of other options’.

We are Christian. My dc went to a c of e primary school but that was mainly because it was the closest school. Most of the children who went to that school weren't C of E, they were the children who lived in the catchment area. The school had several governors who were Christian and the church encouraged their members to volunteer at the school. The school was fairly average compared with the other local primary schools.

Absolutely! Faith schools shouldn’t exist in this country if you ask me…and I object to taxpayers paying towards a school that they have less of a chance at going to just because they aren’t stupid enough to worship some imaginary sky fairy. Shite rules are made to be broken!

@envbeckyc you obviously don’t live rurally where there is no choice of school and if you have to go to church to secure a place you just do it. Or do you think non-Christians should not be allowed to live in the country? It sounds like you are arguing that rural areas which overwhelmingly have only CofE schools should be segregated for Anglicans only - do you think that Catholics, Jews, Methodists just move out? Fuck that.

I can’t speak for other religions, but anybody and everybody is welcome at a C of E church.

Want your kids to go to a church school? Nobody will stop you going to church to qualify for that. Don’t want your kids to go to a church school? Lots of other options.

Shame on you.

Shame on me?! 😂 Hilarious level of hyperbole and aggression for a disagreement over school provision. Do you usually struggle to debate with courtesy?

I feel not a jot of shame for my opinion. I’m quite happy with my stance. But you carry on flinging insults if it floats your boat.

Faith schools do not cost the taxpayer any more money than a non-faith school.

Your attempt at an analogy is silly, as education and healthcare are different. An education rooted in, for example, Christianity, is different to a secular education, as everything flows from, and is underpinned by, the faith. Not at all the same for healthcare.