Help me parse "school shoes" vs. trainers

Schools need to be strict in all areas, including uniform and attendance.

This one was once one of the worst in the country, with no learning taking place and staff and students being assaulted. It has been turned around by focusing on zero tolerance for poor behaviour, attendance and uniform.

As shown on this thread, too many parents think the rules don’t apply to their DC so schools need to take a zero tolerance approach.

💯 It's hard to understand why teachers don't agree. At dd's old school a tiny necklace warranted a detention and formal report. Four girls attacking another and hitting their head on concrete warranted a two day exclusion.

I would venture that responses in schools are wholly disproportionate and that's why families and students do not afford some teachers the respect they would otherwise deserve.

But its a choice to turn uniform into behaviour.

If you have a rule like 'school shoes' you have to apply it consistently and fairly etc, but my child goes to a school without a uniform and the rule is 'closed toe shoes' due to safety.

In school A wearing an smart ankle boot suitable in the rain and your journey is a behaviour issue and school b it isn't.

Yep. Early 70s here. We had beige, suede, crepe soled, laceups as indoor shoes, or we could wear beige suede desert boots. Most of us wore them indoors and outdoors rather than bother with the fag of changing shoes. They lasted forever. They didn't seem to care what we wore outdoors as long as they were brown.

I have no recollection of shoes being an issue at school. Either for me or for my children (now grown up). We just followed the rules which weren't stupid but sometimes stupidly applied. DS had a friend, aged about 7/8 whose shoes broke in the penultimate week of the summer term. The school refused to sanction trainers for 8 days. His mother used an elastic band and the day it rained, a plastic bag! The was a head teacher at another school and made her point well.

We had a very strict uniform.

Oh and any makeup was washed off by a stern lady with a flannel..

Blimey, I started (strict, all girls ) secondary in the later 70s and we had to wear a specific style of lace up shoe. We had different shoes for indoors. Both were actually really comfortable and sturdy thankfully.

Any other older ladies here chortling because their own secondary schools/grammars back in the 70's didn't give a damn about footwear? (Altho' perhaps fiercely enforcing other aspects of uniform.) The cool girls (of whom I was not one) were in four inch heels in an interesting range of colors, fancy boots all the way up to the knee, huge platforms during the 1973-4 rage for them, etc. Monstrous Doc Martins (first editions of) on the boys, with the trousers hiked up . . . . Nor, mysteriously, did the Powers that Be police makeup and this was in the era of blue eye shadow and massive amounts of mascara, mind you!

They would not be acceptable in my dds school.
Basically in a secondary school in the Uk with uniform, the shoes need to be relatively formal and smart. So not trainers, canvas shoes, anything with branding . They need to have low heels and be lace up or buckle up.
The barefoot shoes you have linked would not be smart enough, they are far too casual. They would also get comments from other children.
Go to Clarks or Startrite, get your child fitted and buy something sensible from there. As long as they have properly fitting shoes in the right width your child’s feet will be fine.
There is more flexibility in Primary School.

Known as guttees in northern Ireland! In olden days we had to do indoor pe in bare feet. A polo shirt and thick knickers.
School shoes were fairly horrible way back when!

Plimsolls/daps - oh the joy of no cushioning!

Ours have to be white, with non marking soles.

'Trainers' are the BrE synonym for AmE 'sneakers'.

At my DD’s secondary school they have to be black and/or white and so nearly everyone has the same black Nike trainers because they are cheap and light.

I think of trainers as sneakers for that comparison.

Well yeah, they obviously don’t need to wear trainers for swimming.

Hmm, I think that depends on what type of school you go to. My family go to Catholic private schools in the US, they definitely know what a school shoe is.

Hmm no velcro isn't very SEN friendly.

Just bringing another thought to this.
When my DC were tiny, it was the absolute norm to expect that they would move on from dressing smartly and traditionally at school to dressing smartly and traditionally for work. The world of work has now moved on.

DH only dresses up for court nowadays. For other work he usually wears trousers and a jumper, admittedly with a collar and tie and brogues but that's about him. DD's boyfriend, actuary, wears smartish trousers, black jeans if no meetings, a smart casual jacket and an open necked shirt. If he needs a suit, no tie.

I had an in person meeting yesterday. Nobody wore traditional leather shoes. Executive Team - all footwear was for practical comfort. Not a lace up brogue or tie in sight.

Schools need to move on with the world to prepare DC for the real world of work.

Well it depends on the type of PE doesn't it?

I'm not saying they should not wear trainers but where are all the rules about colour / style / cost?

Trainers = sneakers

There is no evidence that the zero tolerance uniform approach to arbitrary uniform rules and draconian punishments helps behaviour or academic performance. Its entirely performant. If there were a causal correlation, we would expect to see UK uniform hard liners racing ahead of their European peers when on the whole Europe outperforms us. The UK is an outlier with its uniform obsession.

I have seen (older) research suggesting that total control environments result in poorer decision making and independence in young adults. I would be interested to see that work repeated after a decade or more of the fad for total control schools which now seems to be receding.

What makes a difference to children’s learning is rules consistently applied and infringements consistently followed up. Zero tolerance for bullying and harrassment can be effective, zero tolerance with draconian punishments for incorrect lace colours in shoes does not.

Anecdotally, the two secondary schools locally which are the highest performing in terms of value add are also the least demanding on uniform whilst both the schools which have hysterics at a shirt button undone or failure to wear a wool blazer in 30C have drifted downward (and one is now reverting to its previous discipline approach).

I hear what you are saying and when my dc were younger, I would have agreed with you. However, dd attended an outstanding and high performing holy grail state secondary with draconian dress codes. Regrettably the dress code expectations did not mirror expectations about behaviour and general conduct and it felt wholly disproportionate. Fortunately, we were able to move DD to an independent school at the end of Y8. Behaviour was much better. Teaching was much better. The environment was 💯more courteous.

Both the DC were at independents. Behaviour and expectations around it were much better and clearer and there were cinsequences. There were uniforms but they were pretty relaxed although nobody really broke the rules - because they were sensible.

I fail to understand why or how enforced scruffy polyester supports Behaviour. We also have a home in France and uniform, Behaviour and performance do not go hand in hand there. Neither do young people travelling to and from school look such a hideous mess.

I would love a foot specialist to deep dive school shoe policies. Having had a lifetime of foot issues myself and DC’s with their own conditions/size constraints it drives me insane that policies do not account for good foot/general health nor weather conditions or distances walked. I spent many school years writing notes at various times to ensure appropriate for their feet shoes could be worn to avoid further issues.

Ah OK yes so US "running shoes" I think are the closest to trainers in the UK.

Tho trainers now includes the shoes I am wearing today apparently, even though they are certainly not made for running (flat, white leather with a silver star).