A Level timetable clash - help please!

Your daughter sounds like she is very able and motivated to self study for Further Maths, it is really unfortunate that the school cannot accommodate this. I would badger them a bit and make sure they are aware that she is self studying and ask them if she can sit the exam there and also sit the year 12 exam, in which case they could then give her a UCAS prediction. We have students doing this at our school.

Would also recommend looking at the Smallpeice Trust who run residential engineering courses at universities so they are a great introduction to engineering/the university experience and great to talk about in your personal statement/interviews etc

It's a very sensible combination of A-levels - it used to be extremely popular (most people I knew studying maths did it), but nowadays it's becoming more common to add one non-science into the mix. In terms of keeping options open for university, it covers you for most science/engineering/maths. In fact, if you look at the first year options in Cambridge's natural sciences degree, further maths and chemistry covers you for all of them. For things like engineering, even if a university doesn't require further maths, at a top-end uni it may be that almost everyone has done it, and so it's a tougher start for those who haven't.

Have you talked to the maths department (as opposed to the sixth form leadership, who if not mathematicians/scientists will just think four is unnecessary)? The maths department may be furious about this timetabling, and it's possible that they will support her even if she isn't attending further maths lessons. It's even possible that they might look at putting some further maths lessons into "twilight time" or any spare blocks on the timetable, in order that she can attend. (DD's very small sixth form juggled the further maths timetable in September to get round some clashes - they had an unusual further maths group; between the four of them they were doing all three sciences, music, computer science and French.)

Failing that, studying further maths outside school seems the best option - chemistry has the practical element so that's not easy to do externally.

The AMSP offer support for students who can't do further maths in school - mainly aimed at those whose school can't offer it at all, but worth exploring.
https://amsp.org.uk/students/studying-a-level-further-mathematics/
https://amsp.org.uk/teachers/a-level-further-mathematics/student-tuition/

Ooooh @Octavia64 I used to teach with Dr Bennison! He is a wonderful teacher and a top bloke all round. Also an amazing mathematician who (not that commonly in my experience for very good mathsy teachers) was as good with weaker groups as the top set.

I’m a maths teacher.

my advice is not based on the a levels I did many years ago.

it is based on students in the last decade or so.

it is very possible to self study FM. You don’t have to do exam entries until about Xmas year 13 and AS further maths is also an option. So a decision can be made about entries quite late.

there are people that have published schedules for studying FM topics.

i’d strongly suggest getting a subscription to integral which is the asmp platform and has lots of questions and answers plus videos.

you may also find these useful:

Tom Bennison produces some further content including revision and warm up papers
https://blog.drbennisonmaths.com/?s=Further+maths+

Most of core 1 further does not rely on a level maths except for the volumes of revolution stuff so she’d be good to get started on complex numbers, the matrix stuff and vectors.

I had a similar issue 30 years ago. I ended up going to a second 6th form for Maths.

That’s ridiculous, I’m sure lots of people want to do chemistry, maths and FM!

I think she is probably better off dropping the FM as it’s seen as more of an “extra” for people doing maths. Unless she is thinking of doing a maths degree at one of the top universities it’s not essential. Some 6th forms don’t even offer FM so there are plenty of courses who won’t require it.

Chemistry, Physics and Maths would give her a broader range of subjects and more choice of courses she could apply for.

As for picking a random 4th subject, no I wouldn’t do that - 3 is enough. Most people who do 4 is because they are doing maths and FM.

I would look into private tutoring for FM though, and she can have a go at doing it that way.
If there are a few others in the same boat as her you could even club together with the other parents and pay a tutor to teach them all together.
If she has got 9s at GCSE I doubt she will struggle with the work and it would be a shame for her not to at least try and get the FM A level.

Could she do FM from an online provider? If so then the school may be willing to let her sit the exam.

Agree with this. I did natural sciences years ago and for physical natural sciences, I was very disadvantaged by not having been able to take further maths a level - they did cover it, but they covered it very quickly over about a month, and I couldn’t keep up at all. Engineering is even more mathsy. If nearly everyone on the course has it, you’d be at a big disadvantage and even having self studied part of it would really help compared to not at all. My son was told at an engineering open day at imperial also that if your school offers it they expect you to have taken it - though this would be mitigating I think!

However, outside of imperial and Cambridge, all the other top engineering unis we’ve spoken to were adamant that FM is definitely not a prerequisite and while some students have it, it’s not the norm and the course assumes they don’t. I was asking very particularly because of my Cambridge natsci experience! So my suggestion would be to perhaps aim to study online or with a tutor up to AS level FM, because every bit helps, and it would absolutely be harder to self study it than be taught in class. Though with 9’s for maths and FM gcse your dd should be very confident in her ability.

DS is doing engineering at Bath.

he reckons about half his year have FM. The content was covered in his first year but he had to work hard to get the grade.

All his uni offers only included 3 grades and the lack of FM didn’t stop him getting 5 offers (although admittedly he didn’t apply to Imperial/Oxbridge)

https://www.admissions.eng.cam.ac.uk/faqs#qn7
this is the position from Cambridge - FM should be taken if available. My DC has just completed their first year and there are a number of students who self-taught FM where their school did not offer it.

A further thought on FM - students doing Maths and Further Maths, usually cover the entire Maths content in Y12 (and take the A level exam then) and FM in Y13.

A couple of people have said this so just to offer a different view – that's not how it’s done at the school I worked at nor the school my DCs attended. DS2 took maths but not FM and there were FM students in his maths class. They all took maths and FM (those that took it I mean, not ds haha) in year 13.

Incidentally his was (IIRC) the first year at his school where FM was timetabled as a full A level ie with five hours a week of lessons, so you could take it as one of three (with maths as another obvs). In previous years at the school it was always taken as a fourth and just had I think two lessons a week. DD is two years older and someone in her year was allowed to drop chemistry so they just did physics, maths and FM, and had absolutely loads of frees haha.

I’d love to see your reference for this data. Where are you accessing the data you can dig down into? I’m struggling to find anything beyond the data I already shared above - which would suggest yours is incorrect.???

This is right but when you dig down into the stats of successful candidates for Oxbridge, Imperial, you’ll find around 90% of offers are for those who have 4 Alevels with FM as the fourth. They can’t explicitly state this as not all schools offer FM.

Also some great Engineering MOOCS and virtual work experience now too.

There's some great, knowledgeable advice here.
Just to add, as far as FM self study goes, it really depends on her ability mathematically. If she is top flight, it is possible but you are correct, you don't want it to affect overall grades. If she has the ability and work ethic, it is one of the few A levels you can do this with because of the nature of Maths, irregardless of the depth of the syllabus of A Levels that has been mentioned. She needs to be very able though, the 9 at GCSE doesn't distinguish that.
I'd talk to/ email the Head of Maths but 3 and great results with loads of supra curricular is better, IMO (job related). AS FM as a possibility?
As another poster mentioned Smallpeice trust is great, your local universities, depending on where you are. Engineer girl, bad name, good website and Stemettes (great for info and opportunities). Also WISE ( Wonen into Science and Engineering) and the professional bodies.
She should look at her time. Each A level is going to need at least the time she gets it taught for outside lessons. The self teaching obviously more. What is most important to her? How does she want to spend her time? Is she being realistic? Last of all, and hard for them to consider at 18, what does she think 28 year old her might regret not doing, if anything.
Hope it works out well for her, engineering is getting more competitive to get into at the top unis but there is still a significant gender imbalance.

Further maths has a 50% common core of pure and then options, extra pure, mechanics, statistics, discrete etc. Some sixth forms do run further maths in parallel with maths. Our local college does the discrete option first as it doesn't depend on the A level content. The most useful option for Engineering would be mechanics. If one of the OCR courses then they also have a list of resources. https://www.ocr.org.uk/blog/studying-a-level-further-mathematics-at-home/
Have a look to see if your local university have any outreach events.

I have only just seen this thread. How frustrating!! DS (also just done his GCSEs) couldn’t do his preferred A level combo at his school 6th form, but at least they told him in February, and he’d applied to a couple of colleges as well.

I am a civil engineer. Not many of the graduates I work with have A Level FM, and a quick scan of the entry requirements for Leeds, Newcastle, Bristol and Imperial shows that it’s an accepted subject, but not required. Most ask for Maths and a Science + 1 other; or Maths, Physics + 1 other. It is also fairly common for some BEng/MEng courses at a university to have a common first year, with the ability to swap to a different discipline at the end of the first year eg: civil/ structural/ aero/ mechanical - but chem eng and nuclear might have more specific requirements.

A further thought on FM - students doing Maths and Further Maths, usually cover the entire Maths content in Y12 (and take the A level exam then) and FM in Y13. If doing Maths only, then the content is spread over Y12 and Y13. So if self teaching FM, then you may not have covered all the underlying Maths concepts.

As for how to get on in Engineering - have a look at the summer schools and other extra curriculars offered by The Smallpeice Trust.

Many large multidisciplinary engineering consultants offer apprenticeships, degree apprenticeships, internships and sponsorship to young people at various stages in their early careers. Look at the websites/early careers brochures for people like AtkinsRealis, Arup and Jacobs. Also Network Rail. Lots, lots more do graduate training schemes, but that is for further down the line.c

Not sure where your source data for this is? Haven’t seen any data broken down by course??? Would be interesting to see

but for example, Cambridge admissions report for all courses shows only 33% of intake took 4+ a levels. But that could be coincidence rather than causation. Their admissions pages very clearly state (as do other universities) that 4 a levels is not required and will not be a differentiator. But good grades and lots of super curricular activities are both essential. I really think OP’s child would benefit from focusing on these instead.

And every pp saying she could self-teach and they did 4 or 5 a levels has no idea how intense and deep the a level curriculum is now. It is not like the a levels we took.

I would forget self-teach because it’s a huge risk with limited benefit. Whilst universities do not require 4 a levels, if you take 4, they will offer on all 4 - and the top universities will expect an A or A star.

Also FM has lots of different possible optional papers so even students who take it will have gaps in their maths knowledge when they start university. There will be no expectation that students know maths beyond a level at the start of their engineering course.

They don't state as a requirement but if you look at actual points of successful applicants holders they nearly all have 4.

That is very bizarre @Namechanged4obviousreasons (helpful!) that would surely be a very common combo if taking maths and FM.

Nothing wrong with doing three A levels not four; no uni wants four. But as others say, many people taking FM will be taking four. And some unis (the highest ranked) may want FM for engineering as well as physics. So if she really wants to stay at the school and do engineering then she should drop the chemistry. But if she loves that then she may prefer to do chem at uni? or chemical eng?

I cannot believe this tbh. I mean I am not saying it's not true lol but what madness from the school. Is it a very small sixth form?How incredibly frustrating, You and she have my sympathy. The self-teach idea may work.

No university requires 4 a levels for engineering including Oxford and Cambridge. @Namechanged4obviousreasons your child would be better served focusing on shining at 3 a levels plus lots of engineering super curriculum activities and preparation for the entry exam.

Strongly advise she looks at some of the unis she thinks she might want to go to. Certain ones ( very few, top grades) will ask for Further Maths. Many will tell you 'preferred' A Levels and FM/ Chemistry will feature.
1st year of engineering Maths will be used to get Maths and FM students completely up to speed so that is easier if you have done FM.
Will school offer her the option to do FM as an AS, possibly in U6? That indicates aptitude. Or, as other posters have said, lots of supported self study available, will school allow her to sit exam. She could try self study and cut her losses if needed.
Generally Chem instead of FM keeps more options open, 3 A* and lots of supracurricular would be the best 'package'.
I always advise research next step and consider what each option rules out.
Oh, and Further Maths is hard! Very hard. Her Maths teachers should be able to give her an indication on what sort of grade range she might attain.

If she is self-motivated, she should self-study FM. There's lots of resources online, both free and paid, to cover the whole syllabus.