If you're a teacher who advises students on their A Level options ...

@NW3Lady Doesn’t nearly everyone who makes a decent living? Most people cannot go and retreat from working life unless they inherit a shed load.

Absolutely. Doesn’t mean they are passionate about those jobs and loving life though necessarily. Many are tied into large mortgages and established lifestyles which are hard to give up, so they hang on on the treadmill.

The new TPD is not final salary anymore. And retirement age is 67, so 44 years working before can claim these days. Doctors pay 12.5% of salary into their pension so not free ! Teachers 9-12%.
New doctors and teachers are not well paid. Senior ones might be but things have changed a lot.
Teachers do not have time to be experts in all careers, that’s why we have a national careers service, which is free.

@inthisvehicleYes. I do understand the recruitment issue but teachers looking at a centuries old grammar vs a new free school with a tiny 6th form might prefer the grammar or a well established good 6th form which some secondaries do have. It’s not sustainable to have every school with a 6th form when there are already some decent choices. It’s an issue with the free schools that were established without true need. Although that’s another discussion!

@NW3Lady Why would they leave when the tax payer puts a thumping 24-28% into their pensions? It would be economic madness. Most doctors who are established don’t leave and my Dr neighbour has 2 Dr children. Ditto several at my GP surgery. They don’t seem put off at all but they’ve had a very decent lifestyle and a very good retirement very early. They only need to work full time for around 30 years.

@inthisvehicleThe new free school secondary school in the small town I grew up in has just closed its 6th form. It’s in a grammar LA, and with a great grammar school just 15 minutes drive away, its 6th form has been a short lived experiment. Obviously the brightest 25% are elsewhere already.

Schools want them to boost pupil generated money except they don’t when they are small. Many dc cannot access the A level courses satisfactorily and the school cannot offer a broad range of subjects, eg no MFLs or Chemistry! It’s obvious the bright dc don’t want to stay and the FE college, 25 minutes in the other direction is a much better bet for many less academic dc. Schools should not push dc into 6th forms to then see them do poorly. Ofsted also didn’t like what it saw in this 6th form either. So it’s gone.

Pupils should have access to a level 6 guidance professional-
Level 6 careers advisors play a crucial role in guiding individuals towards informed career decisions. They possess advanced knowledge and skills to support individuals through complex career planning, including those with significant obstacles. These professionals are essential for helping people navigate the ever-evolving job market, develop career-related learning strategies, and achieve their full potential

See benchmark 8 of the Gatsby Benchmarks
https://www.careersandenterprise.co.uk/educators/gatsby-benchmarks/

Doctors are not well paid. 22% pay cut in last 8 years. No one goes into medicine for the money in this country (£100,000 debt and starting salary of £36,616 after 5-6 years).

Careers advice is a team effort, from parents, teachers who have experience/training/time to give it, careers advisors.

So true. I know of several people with really plum jobs in medicine and not one of them has encouraged their children into the profession. Just because doctors don’t tend to leave their jobs doesn’t necessarily mean they’re happy with them. They reach a point in life where they’ve made commitments which make it difficult to leave.

When should I provide this expert careers advice ? While teaching A Level content, in my lunch break (when I’m v often doing a duty) or after school when I need to mark and plan ? Where in my day should this be done ? Or should we leave it up to the qualified careers advisor that every state school has access to. I do provide advice for medics and vets but that’s because I get dedicated time to do it - I know nothing about law, history or engineering so why would I give advice ? Moral duty ? Anything else you’d like us to be experts in - parenting maybe ?

It's nothing to do with feeling defensive, but feeling utterly fed up with people not in the job telling us how to do our jobs and now suggesting that we have a moral obligation to take on even more work that isn't our responsibility.

You're just the latest in a long line.

I would argue that it’s a moral responsibility, as a teacher, not to offer half arsed advice in an area where I am not an expert ie future careers, job markets and university courses. My expertise is in teaching my subject and any research time I have should be spent on that.

That’s an unfair response @inthisvehicle
@noblegiraffehas only repeated what you said.
You’ve given some excellent information on this thread but you don’t seem willing to take on any of the points others have made. Instead you respond in a very patronising manner.

But you used it specifically in a response to a query about whether teachers should be expected to deliver expert careers advice. Which you have now declared a moral responsibility.

And I am pretty worried that you are a school governor. Make sure your school gets in good careers advisers and stop dumping on teachers.

Wow.

It is not a teacher's moral responsibility to provide expert careers advice to pupils.

Get a grip of yourself. Set up a helpful website for Y11s to google. Don't you dare tell me that it's a moral failing if I concentrate on my actual job instead of trying to do everyone else's for them.

I'm a school governor, so very aware of the pressures that teachers are under and would never suggest that they have a "duty" to know about this stuff and teach about it

So you're backtracking on your earlier comments about education being everyone's responsibility then?

Schools who pay their careers staff a fair wage get high calibre staff. A decent wage will attract staff qualified up to masters level.

Schools that pay peanuts will only attract unqualified staff or those with L2/4 quals. This means they fall short of the statutory requirements on career guidance and are doing their students a disservice.

Universities pay careers consultants the same as a lecturer which makes it a far more attractive proposition.

Parents and teachers …yes. There’s a lot of research to support this.
However, you are letting your very limited experience of careers advisers influence your opinion of a whole profession. Which is a shame especially as so much of the information you have been sharing has been researched, compiled and disseminated by careers professionals.

There is some really excellent and exciting work currently been done on AI - looking it its impact on the future labour market, supporting young people and students on how to use it effectively in their career development and training teachers, academics and employers - all led by by careers advisers.

Careers guidance in schools should be underpinned by The Gatsby Benchmarks. Benchmark 2 is focused on labour market information and I could signpost you to dozens of wonderful examples of schools looking beyond traditional jobs.

You have a wealth of knowledge and understanding OP, but you overestimate what teachers are able to do. Most of us are juggling/struggling with teaching students from 11-18 in our chosen subject - we’re rarely just exam teachers and we don’t have the time to become career experts too.

I am a 1 and 2 teacher (English and Media). I have no interest in directing students on to undersubscribed courses - but equally I cannot know/ research which universities want which combinations leading to which careers.

I feel that the information is just as available to the student and their parents via the wonders of the internet as me. And they can build up a much more personalised information bank.

If you are arguing more a much more highly skilled Careers Service, I am totally with you. It is the Cinderella of schools and too often staffed by poor calibre staff. That should be your crusade, not expecting teachers, yet again, to fill the gaps.