Sixth form decisions - is Core Maths useful, or an EPQ?

https://amsp.org.uk/universities/university-admissions/alternatives-admissions/

This is a list of universities known to give alternative offers for core maths.

EPQ is very worthwhile to do in sixth form, a lot of Unis (inc top ones) take account of your EPQ grade in their offers (lower grade offers). Also the experience of doing it is very worthwhile. My daughter in Uni year 1 talks about this often.

I don’t have direct experience of the Core Maths qual but it gets reports from other parents I know.

@Mafaldaweasley im not sure she should be basing her decision on EPQ v Core Maths for choosing her next destination, especially when a lot of universities don’t drop grades for either. If the EPQ is in yr13 she may decide her A levels are enough & decide against the extra demands. Another thing to check is if the EPQ is properly timetabled - it’s quite onerous and some schools expect DC to crack on with little guidance. I’d definitely shy away from doing it in yr13. Core maths is taught and will be properly timetabled. But I’m still not sure that’d be the reason to choose one 6th form over an other. Definitely definitely look at potential courses and universities if the EPQ v Core Maths will be a deciding factor in her choice of 6th forms.

@Mafaldaweasley not all universities reduce grades for A in EPQ. So double check the universities she’s interested in. Even Fewer reduce grades for Core Maths - the ones I know who definitely do are Bath,York & Sheffield. The former two reduce one grade if they obtain a B in core maths. Sheffield reduce for an A.
DD2 chose core maths alongside History, Psychology & Economics. It was completed in yr12, found it no harder than GCSE but enormously helpful for psychology A level and more recently with her degree modules in data analytics etc. I believe there’s 3 options of study under the umbrella of ‘core maths’, which may mean the courses offered differ slightly. So check the specification.
Unfortunately DD3’s 6th form don’t offer it as she would definitely choose it alongside Sociology, Politics & Psychology.

@Mafaldaweasley Would either the school or the college let her start off with 4 subjects and drop the least favourite after a term or so?

Core Maths is literally designed for students like your DD. It was designed for students taking sciences and social sciences who haven't got the ability or capacity to take A-level maths. It supports the maths side of those subjects (e.g. statistics for psychology). Universities like it because they had problems with students coming to study science or psychology who hadn't done any maths since GCSE and they were having to put remedial maths classes on for them. It can attract reduced offers, and is well-regarded.

My DD also found psychology irredeemably dull and has just dropped it in term 2 (going down from 4 to 3 A levels).

DD hated psychology, which was why she dropped it for year 13. It was very content heavy and you have to memorise loads of cases and experiments carried out by people with unpronounceable and hard to spell names.

She also didn't find it very challenging and rather dull.

It's always a risk when choosing untried subjects. A lot of DD's peers regretted choosing psychology.

DC did an EPQ in Year 12 and it took about 160 hours of sometimes intense work. They are now doing projects at college that use the skills they honed for this, and it really has been an advantage for them. They scored highly in their EPQ and are glad they did it, but it can be a LOT of extra work when you’re focusing on A levels too.

@Mafaldaweasley DD2 did the same A level combination as your DD is planning. I would also describe her in similar terms - not an academic high flyer but determined, focused and hard working. FWIW she now has 2 STEM degrees.

She is not a natural mathematician so A level was never a consideration but she did maths, further maths and statistics GCSEs. The statistics in particular was helpful for psychology and beyond that - epidemiology is largely statistics-based so is there any option to do something like that at either of her choices?

Personally, I'd have thought some maths would be way more useful than an EPQ in your DD's case.

I would be tempted to do EPQ as the subject choices do not include an extended piece of coursework (if they were taking English lit or history it would be less useful as the skill is repeated)

That was in response to the UCAS points for core maths.

I agree that an EPQ is fine if it doesn't detract from A levels, and the skills and experience from doing one helps once they start university.

A lot of the humanities subjects include an NEA (non examined assessment) which does cover a lot of the skills learned from doing an EPQ. DD's geography NEA was about 6,000 words and was a mini dissertation. She had to conduct research and report back on it and reference her sources. Also, she was studying four A level subjects in year 12 and an EPQ would have broken her. she dropped psychology after AS exams after achieving an A.

I don't think DD's school were big on EPQs when she took her A levels 7 years ago. I think they are more of a thing now.

I'd say core maths skills would be more useful in degree work and in the workplace afterwards than an EPQ.

Core maths is very practical and useful. It includes things like statistics and data analysis that would be helpful for medicine, and things like financial maths that will be useful for managing future debt or savings, or completing a tax return. There is a good section about it in this podcast: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001tpwb

Many year 12 students do extended projects that they can talk about in their UCAS personal statement - my sons both did one over a period of 2-3 weeks after their summer mocks - it doesn't need to be an EPQ to serve the purpose.

Does anyone have any views on whether better to do the EPQ in year 12 or 13?
I've had DC do both and I'd say year 12 is better. Year 13 is very pressured with University applications, mocks and of course the actual A levels. Year 12 is a bit less full on so better to move some of the workload if you can. Also if the EPQ is done by the time University applications are going in, they can write about it and if they are applying to somewhere that interviews it may be useful to be able to talk about.

In terms of UCAS points it depends on where you apply. I hate to bring what might seem like an element of snobbery into this (snobbery on the higher education threads really irritates me), but the higher ranked universities offer on A level or similar grades only, not UCAS points. So this is something to bear in mind.
True, but some Universities take notice of the EPQ in ways other than counting the points. One of my friends' DC received a reduced offer from an RG University for Medicine last year if she got an A star for her EPQ for instance.
Plus I think the actual process of doing the project can be very worthwhile in its own right. My elder DS learned a huge amount from his EPQ and whilst it didn't directly help him get onto his University course in so far as he didn't need points from it, it featured in his personal statement, definitely helped him get related work experience and the skills and knowledge he gained from it have proved very useful in his subsequent studies.
Depends very much on individual circumstances of course, and doing a complex EPQ shouldn't be so onerous that it interferes with core A level studies, but I don't believe that it's only a meaningful exercise for people who need the points to meet a University entry offer - it can definitely be a worthwhile exercise in its own right.

EPQ is useful, but only if they are going to get an A. Which is very achievable if they start early and dedicate proper time and research to it.