Candidates flying from overseas to sit super-selective grammar 11+

No it is not a media/political trope. Absolutely everyone I personally know moves for secondary schools, one way or another. However, personally I would have moved to eg Chorleywood for the best comp with a backup option for grammar in case it did not work out. And yes, we also looked at Bucks years ago and decided against it. Pretty much everyone goes to West Kent for the grammars too.

Evidence please? There is no evidence whatsoever that this is the case, it's a media/political trope. There may be a handful of families each year who move for the schools but it's far less common than people think it is - particularly people who do not live here. It's an expensive area because it's popular, and it's popular for any number of reasons - great transport links by road, rail and plane, quick commute into central London, countryside on your doorstep, etc. As regards your analogy, Bucks has mixed grammar schools as well as single-sex ones, something you'd be aware of if you actually knew the area rather than making assumptions about it.

Bucks grammar schools are catchment area schools and for some of them you have to be living in catchment for quite a while before you even sit the 11+. They're not the same as the super-selectives where you apply from anywhere in the country with a view to moving if you DC wins a place. Which I guess kind of brings us full circle back to @PopcornPoppingInAPan 's original OP.

“The assumption that parents support grammar schools because they live in an area that has grammar schools is a classic case of correlation not equalling causation.”

Not really in the case of Bucks, in particular, that is one of the wealthiest home counties with expensive house prices. People move out of London to Bucks and one of the reason may well be the belief they want the possibility of a grammar education. If you were to change the grammar system overnight, that may well have a negative impact on house prices in Buckinghamshire. West Kent is another example of that. It may apply less to the poorer parts of Kent.

It is a bit like someone coming along and saying single sex education is outdated. Let’s make every secondary school mixed starting from Year 8 in 2025, just bung a fee portaloos for the boys in the playground or make them all mixed gender anyway. No concern for anything else - the fact that girls’ schools have an ethos as well, for example and that parents chose those schools in the first place and teachers chose to teach there.

None of us can say whether the political changes are short term or long term, can we? All we can judge on is what is happening right now. There is no hard evidence either way as to whether local residents support grammar schools or not. There hasn't been a consultation let alone a referendum on the issue for decades - one was mooted in 1998 but it never happened.

The assumption that parents support grammar schools because they live in an area that has grammar schools is a classic case of correlation not equalling causation.

You also said "Besides my child would have gotten into a great comprehensive too"

If, would, well, go figure out and make up you own case. It is a very self selective school too, It is clearly these kind of parents having issue about themself.

650 grammar schools closed in the 1970s, it turns out for the better.

It is a very selective school, if it became comprehensive for next year’s intake it would change the dynamics and curriculum and some teachers would leave and it may well be quite disruptive. The disruption from such large changes is real. Schools have a culture and ethos and may child has had enough distruption in key early years of KS1 for me not want him to be the subject of political football games, at his expense.

Besides my child would have gotten into a great comprehensive too - you cannot just suggest that you are going to mess with their education and school after the event we have the evidence as to effects on their mental health

Wow The school lost its grammar school selective status will cause some mental health issues, is it to those grammar obsessive parents? This is utterly absurd.

And High Wycombe is the first time since 1951! So these are not exactly established Labour seats now are they. They will be lost at the next election if drastic Labour style stuff is pulled without consultation, in what is basically a largely Tory area.

Aylesbury had its first EVER Labour MP in 2024. Bucks was always Tory stronghold, that is why they retained grammars originally. If I were the Labour MP there I would want it consulted on, the population needs to feel they get a say.

Surely it should be a national decision rather local. Why should children that live in one area not have similar educational experiences as children that live in another part of England.

Grammar schools have been abolished in many places for very good reasons.@thing47 is right many people are trapped with a system that they don't agree with

AI couldn’t dream up the dramatic life some poster made up in this thread!

It's not sad, it's fine :) AI just doesn't understand real life 😂

Its so sad that I used google and had to get chatgpt to rewrite my responses to make them readable 😆. My writing would not pass the 11+ exam even as an adult. Need to go back to school!

@thing47 - have these been Labour seats for a long time? Or just relatively recently? Do you think it should be a local decision or a national decision? Surely you would want it to look like a local decision conducted on especially if it is a relatively recent Labour seat? (If you vote that way?)

One or two assumptions about Bucks which I would like to comment on. Please don't assume that because we have and use grammar schools that we are actually in favour of them on a societal level. We are stuck with the education system we have, just like everyone else, so of course people use it. But many many parents would rather not have grammar schools at all, even if some or all of their own DCs attended one.

As for the 'political suicide' a PP mentioned with regard to abolishing grammar schools in the county, not necessarily, in fact. The towns of Aylesbury and High Wycombe are in Labour hands, and Amersham & Chesham is Liberal. Those constituencies account for 10 of the 13 grammar schools in Bucks.

I'm not saying their demise is imminent, but politically unthinkable? No, that isn't true whatever people who don't live here may think.

“Most of them, despite being able to afford private schools, choose not to pay and instead opt to use public state resources, believing they are getting a 'good' deal”.

Where is your evidence for ability to pay? What 25k per child per year plus VAT? Or whatever private schools charge these days. Rest assured I cannot afford to pay 100k plus VAT per year (4DC).
Besides my child would have gotten into a great comprehensive too - you cannot just suggest that you are going to mess with their education and school after the event. You don’t have the power, sorry. And yes grammar school parents will also fight for their children’s right. Remember we are all angry about the disruption caused to our children’s lives during Covid. We are not going to stand for more - we have the evidence as to effects on their mental health and we are not going to accept some ideologues play with our children’s future to satisfy their own tunnel vision and egos.

Using AI does not equate to doing the research 😉

I am pretty confident the 5 % of grammar parents will be at least as vocal if we need to be. We all have votes and most of us contribute taxes. That all matters a lot more than peer reviewed studies. We are the parents of the actual children.

While they may be vocal, their actions are probably not as strong as those in the private sector. Most of them, despite being able to afford private schools, choose not to pay and instead opt to use public state resources, believing they are getting a 'good' deal. Just consider how a much larger proportion of grammar schools disappeared 30 years ago.

@Dtnews - well the 7% of private school parent lobby group have certainly caused a stir. I am pretty confident the 5 % of grammar parents will be at least as vocal if we need to be. We all have votes and most of us contribute taxes. That all matters a lot more than peer reviewed studies. We are the parents of the actual children.
The Government needs to focus on the silent poverty struck families who are protesting by not sending their children to school in the first place.
And definitely not by engaging in fights with private school parent lobby groups or possibly grammar school ones in the future. That would lead to a dead end and not serve the former more urgent group. I have explained this to you many times now.

I didn’t present any studies to you in the thread. However, the poster above has shown you evidence-based, accredited, peer-reviewed research, which you dismiss as coming from a lobby group. Why not show us what your parent lobby groups have to offer, other than anecdotes or parent satisfaction surveys? Good luck using those for government policies.

@Dtnews - why would I possibly be interested in studies you throw at me from the ComprehensiveFuture playbook - a lobby group going for many years with a tunnel vision and no regard for my own DCs needs or no clue about them whatsoever.
We parents have our own lobby groups now, thank you very much.

We simply are not interested in what politicians would like to use for their own gain or what studies anyone would like to throw at us. We have all been to university ourselves, we know the limitations of data and bias.

Here you go..

@bluegoosie - it does not really matter. Most MN posts go completely off topic. Thanks for the discussion.

I can only speak for myself but as a parent who went through Covid with 4 DC and had to work and homeschool, I am no longer willing to submit to any ideology imposed on me or my DCs by anyone else. I know best for my own DC, regardless of what anyone else would like to tell me. And I believe many other parents feel that way these days. We simply are not interested in what politicians would like to use for their own gain or what studies anyone would like to throw at us. We have all been to university ourselves, we know the limitations of data and bias.

I have just looked at the OP post and I have to conclude this thread is well and truly off topic. I take responsibility for this and I apologise to OP.

I would open a new thread about grammar schools but I think that might blow up this forum.

Thank you all for the great discussion 🤗 I have certainly enjoyed doing the research on grammar schools and learning about the various studies that have already been done.

I wish you and your families all the best.