Candidates flying from overseas to sit super-selective grammar 11+

We didn't have anything stamped by our primary for HB.

Does it happen? Sure. But the families have to have a right to reside here either through dual citizenship, permanent residency or the parents being able to get visas that allow them to bring along children on one of the types of visas that don't prohibit enrolling in state-supported school (child student visas come with a restriction about this). The majority of parents who will be flying a student in to sit 11+ exams are dual-citizens or parents of dual-citizens even if they've never lived here. Most of the residency checks happen after the exams but parents can also rent a small apartment to use as an address in the meantime.

Is this an actual problem? No. The numbers are small and most are families who plan to have their children attend secondary in the UK - it's an incredibly logical point to time that move. They don't have an advantage on the exam, passports are usually required and photos are usually taken on exam day and added to the student files so there is not an epidemic of 10-year-old ringers being paid to sit exams for people.

There is no form of "gaming the system" with selectives that should even register on anyone's radar next to local middle and upper middle class families spending a fortune on years of private tutoring.

At a super selective I worked they needed to bring in passports for ID.

I don’t agree the whole system is rigged.

Anyone can put their child forward for the 11+

Some people don’t. I’ve had some shit comments from other parents here since the school places were announced on the 3rd. I’ve been called a stuck cow (not a new one to be fair), asked why I am sending dd to a “la di da” school.

They could have put their kids in for it too. You don’t have to pay for tutoring, you can do it yourself.

The people I live around - they are smoking weed on the school run, we can’t even have parent events like nativity plays as parents used to start fights. They aren’t going to put in any effort with thier children. They don’t value education at all and don’t instill it into their children.

That’s not a rigged system - that’s just fucking idiots. And to be honest, I don’t want my children going to the dire local secondary schools with their children to get dragged down, or overlooked as the teachers are too busy fire fighting awful behaviour- from children and parents.

Yes, my daughter is privileged not to be from here, to have educated parents who want her to do well in life. Why should she be dragged down because other parents here aren’t like us?

I feel shit that due to some awful circumstances we’ve eneded up here. The least we can do is give our children the best opportunity to get out.

@Araminta1003 your insistence that your DS would have done the 11+ whatever the situation is exactly the privilege I'm talking about.
Having a parent who values education & has enough resources to put their kid into the exam is a prerequisite that many bright, academic children dont have.

It is relevant to the discussion - People getting all misty eyed about 'foreign children taking our DC places' can get in the sea when the whole system is rigged. After all, if just about 'certain brain power' proportionally they won't get in, right? It's all fair & good until it's not fair to them.

No one in my area does 11+, so maybe that’s why.

The council certainly didn’t know - my dh is head of the department that would have known at our local council 😂

I feel they are doing families a disservice for not even mentioning it, but seriously, this is a place where parents smoke weed on the school run, so the head just looked at me like I was a bit dim for asking why they didn’t tell parents who didn’t know about it.

If Nationality is such a big deal to you, don't send your kid to a selective grammar school.

British "ex-pats" ... LOL

There are always exceptions. But I now live across the road from one of the most notorious estates in the black county. My children go to school here. My husband and I both work in the education sector here. You would have been the exception to the rule.

He even came home from school with the familiarisation pack and a print out of the id form, although you can download the form from the councils website.
I know many other children over 2 borders take the exam too, no idea if their school sends them home with a form. The council did inform the school who was taking the exam. The catholic grammar did not and we didn't fill in an id form for that one.

“But if you were a single mum living in poverty, you probably wouldn’t have put him forward for the 11+”

That could have happened to me and would have been even more of a reason for me putting DS forward for the 11+!

But if you were a single mum living in poverty, you probably wouldn’t have put him forward for the 11+

I know it’s an huge generalisation, Again, just speaking from my own lived experience of working and now living in a deprived area. if you have grown up in a deprived area, your family are all low income, you don’t usually have education on your radar.

Going on and on about how only rich tutored kids can get in, is not helpful. It is what puts poorer families off trying in the first place. Poor bright kids can get in if the parents are willing to engage with the process and do some work. It does not have to be years and years of work. In London, there are also FSM places requiring lower scores anyway and transport is largely free until 16 at least.

Don't know, good question

What I was saying is that when it comes to the competition of the most selective schools in London, money alone cannot buy you a place. DS has friends who have been tutored from an early age who did not get in. We just bought past papers and did one set of mock tests.
What he did do of his own accord is years and years of reading. And of course he was always doing well at school anyway. But he is no genius. Just bright and capable and fast and accurate with excellent vocabulary and good problem solving skills. Even if I were a single mum living in poverty, the outcome for DS would have been the same. I would have still applied and public transport to get there is free for us anyway.

I can only speak for where I am, but it’s a deprived area and the parents here don’t have 11+ on their radar at all.

Which surprised me, as the only silver lining of having to move to this hellhole a few years ago, is that we have excellent grammar schools 30-45mins away. The secondary schools here are fucking dire.

There are a couple of other really bright kids in dds year who would have also passed the 11+ and got into one but it’s just not something people here do. One of the teachers at dds school has been the 35 years and said DD is the first child she’s known in the school to take it.

It’s definitely seen as a middle class thing to do, or even know about, so yes, dd is ultimately privileged that she has the background she does and not being lower income like most of her peers here, even though we live where we do now.

What has it got to do with the primary school?

My dd was the only one from her primary to do the 11+ (it’s not a thing here despite grammars being 30-45 mins away). if I hadn’t told her school so she could have the day off, no one from her school would have known she’d even taken it (nowhere near London either, west mids). No catchment for the ones we applied, but I know there is for a couple of super selective Birmingham ones.

She did have to attach a passport photo to the form but that was all.

It depends on the school/ local borough. I know in Buckinghamshire you have to be living in the catchment and have severed all ties with previous address very soon after qualifying for a place.

We are in a neighbouring county with no full grammar, just two super selective and one other school with a super selective stream. The girls super selective would let anyone take the exam but you wouldn't be offered a place, however high you scored, unless you were in catchment at the time of the exam and the results. It was very strict - she had to take photo id verified by the head of her primary school.

The selective stream school was less exacting and if you passed and were offered a place you would have until x weeks before the start of the school year to move into catchment or otherwise lose the place. There were LOADS of girls from London and other areas taking the exam, I was gobsmacked.

And by the way, contrary to popular belief I doubt money can buy you a place at any of these grammar schools. You do need to have a certain amount of brains and speed to pass in the first place as there is quite a lot of competition. We did not tutor and DS is very bright but no genius

You are genuinely saying that the middle class kids who are vastly over-represented have 'a certain amount of brains' that lower income kids do not?
Privilege encompasses way more than a tutor.

contrary to popular belief I doubt money can buy you a place at any of these grammar schools

With brain power only to get in without money or tutoring is highly unlikely.

DS got into one of the London superselectives this year and we only found out on 3 March. There is no way of knowing for 2 of the London boys superselective grammars in advance whether you will get a place - those are the two that have second stage tests and they do not tell you the result. We already had to complete an enrolment form to provide birth certificate and copy of passport so for those two there would not have been time to get the paperwork in order for those trying it on from overseas. If they are not eligible then the place will presumably be offered to someone else on the waiting list.
Which essentially means this can only be a possibility for a superselective grammar which guarantees a place following a communicated stage 1 score - QE? And then you would have to move to UK, sort out visas etc, get a job between October and March. It would be such a minority of kids able and willing to do this, hardly worth getting worked up over.
And by the way, contrary to popular belief I doubt money can buy you a place at any of these grammar schools. You do need to have a certain amount of brains and speed to pass in the first place as there is quite a lot of competition. We did not tutor and DS is very bright but no genius. He got in. Thankfully the one he is going to is relatively local. We did meet a few people doing the 11 plus rounds all over the country. They typically have 1 kid only. Again, it will be a minority willing to do that. What does happen sometimes is that kids from our area make the waiting list only but get offered superselectives at the other end of London and kids from that area come all the way here. Now that makes no sense for the kids themselves. It would be better if all these top schools coordinated their admissions so this does not happen the way it does currently.

A family in my son's class have made their kid sit multiple 11+ across the country (according to the child - but definitely Birmingham & London). With the intention of relocating.

Yet another reason why the grammar system is a load of rubbish & should be scrapped.

How is this helping the brightest kids have equal opportunity in education? It helps the richest kids get an additional advantage.

Yes - true we had that in my area where my son applied for grammar school. More and more common

If the audience becomes significant, it could make a difference to other children's chances

@PopcornPoppingInAPan Most LAs require foreign nationals to fill out a schools application form with proof of the parent's and child's immigration status and usually also proof of residency at the time of the application. Only after successfully processing this will the child be offered a place (grammar or comp).

NB: Residency proof is required but not necessarily always at the same time as the immigration status because sometimes the application is done before the family has secured a specific property but they know they will be in the area.

Generally this application is for in year placements and is not part of the schools admission process for all the local children. People immigrate for work all the time but most jobs do not align with the school year. In reality most foreign nationals relying on the LA end up with very little choice in where their children go to school, and usually go to undersubscribed schools.

If this is QE or HB I believe it’s been known to happen for years now. There are tutors who teach this audience now. No new news.