Candidates flying from overseas to sit super-selective grammar 11+

Just any.

I'm reporting you for personal attacks.

You don't have a job?
I simply can geg how parents spend hours in their childrens' schools.

Get a life 😂

Thanks Cap.

In the queue there must be a mumsnet poster out there who works as an Uber driver, happens to be a single mum, has experienced poverty, yet still manages to send her daughter to a private prep school after years of dedicated tutoring!

if parents value education

Parents or families who value education do not equal to the 11+ exams or selective schools, or a strict tutoring regime spanning years.

Some families value education but oppose early-stage educational segregation (as mentioned by one of the posters above). Some family glue education but believe in education within an environment that includes a full range of abilities, reflecting the real world.

I've seen queues around HBS many times, the parents must all have been investment bankers but many of them looked like Uber drivers - I'm sure they were just pretending to fool MN users.

When I took my daughter for her 11+ exam, there were a few children in the queue with parents holding 11+ practice books in front of them, barking at them to answer questions. Christ, if they were doing that, 15 mins before an exam, can you imagine the structure at home?

My dd was tutored in year 5, one session for an hour a week.

Only because, I did the 11+ myself. I know what an absolute head fuck non verbal reasoning is in particular. I opened up dds practice book and I could have cried! I went to a school in a area where there are 7 grammar schools, so we did the prep at school as eveyone took the 11+ (or 12+ as it was in my day, but same same). Dd didn’t have that, so we had to do it at home/tutoring.

Lots of people say you shouldn’t tutor children at all. It would take one heck of a genuis child to go into an 11+ exam and look at a non verbal paper and know what the fuck to do. Or the verbal and maths. Especially when they are from a school outside of an gramma area so they have absolutely no prep in school for what it entails. Adults would be confused as hell faced with that too.

Tutoring just enables someone who knows what they are doing to explain HOW to do the 11+ questions.

You forgot about refugees. They were not aspiring to leave their country so a different demographic.

It's not about race either. Ukrainians are not brown, Syrians can be white or SW Asian etc. It doesn't matter if parents value education.

There will be some amazing children going there, naturally bright, diligent, great personalities concerned about the world around them, good friends.

Let's check how many of them are living in poverty with a single mum, or are from Poland, Syria, or Ukraine...

If you want a CEO, you'll need to go private

Alternatively, some comprehensive schools are likely to produce more CEOs than seom grammar schools

My 4 year old in reception is very much like her siblings. She’s an August baby and already ahead of what is expected for the summer term of reception. She’s doing well as she is naturally bright but has our support at home. She also has the full engagement of the teachers at school as she wants to learn. Just like her older sister. Teachers bend over backwards to help my children because a) they see their potential and b) I am working with them, not against them. I had a teacher spend 2 lunchtimes a week with dd in year 5 going through her 11+ papers as he was so behind her going to a grammar school. He did it off his own back and I am so greatful for his support (his own daughter attends the grammar dd is going to in sept, so it was personal to him as he could see how much dd would thrive in that particular school).

I spend hours going in to school each week, helping with reading, helping with costumes for the school plays (which at the moment, they have to film as they can’t have parents on site for them due to past fights breaking out), anything else they need me to do.

I don’t see the school as the issue. The teachers are fantastic. My children would never fail there as quite frankly, we wouldn’t allow it. But we are supportive parents. Not all children have that.

We also don’t have a choice where we live. There are no better schools. My husband works for the LA, he knows the ins and outs of all of them in great detail. So we make the best of it by engaging with teachers, volunteering in the school to help staff try and get more parents engaged. I’ve been trying to start a PTA since dd started there in year 1. She’s now year 6 and we are finally a little band of 5 parents.

The school just got a “good” from ofsted for the first time in 25 years thanks to the wonderful head who started at the same time as dd did.

It depends on the school. Our cohort sat for HBS this year, lots of SE Asians but other ethnic groups as well. Most of them have been tutored for a couple of years but no one followed the regime you described. There will be some amazing children going there, naturally bright, diligent, great personalities concerned about the world around them, good friends. Definitely not just drill drill drill types.

If you want a CEO, you'll need to go private 🙂 It's a very different set of skills not necessarily developed at grammars.

My son is at a super selective and there are children from a wonderful array of different nationalities, cultures and backgrounds - Greece, Ukraine, Russia, Albania, Brazil as well as SE Asian heritage. Way more than he had at his comprehensive (he moved there for sixth form). For sixth form there were over 700 applications for 35 places.

He didn't take the 11+ - I'm not a believer in segregated education - but he chose to apply for sixth form and accepted the offered place.

His school does have a catchment area, although it is all of our county and parts of the neighbouring three counties, so very wide. The over-subscription categories are the same as you might find at any local comp.

For 11+ they admit 150 boys and they must provide proof of address, residency and right to remain at the time of taking the test (which is on the school site), at the point of offer (if requested) and when they take up their place. Looking at the number of applications compared to acceptance a child has approximately 10% chance of being given a place. Anyone "gaming" the system would certainly skew the chances of genuine applicants.

The school is holding it's year 5 open day next week and they are asking the state school boys (like my son) to contact their primaries and encourage their boys to attend the open day. They seem to genuinely want to to attract potential students from a more diverse cohort than they have traditionally attracted.

Perhaps this would justify some parents choosing to separate students based on their "brains" from the age of 4, rather than waiting until they are 11.

And that’s fantastic for your local schools. Unfortunately, that doesn’t work everywhere.

My y 6dd has been at her primary here since year 1. The school don’t do trips at all due to behaviour issues of some of the children. They tried in the past, and apparently it was just horrific. Staff couldn’t keep them safe due to thier behaviour. Plus, if there was a school trip, parents wouldn’t pay for it, even a fee of £5, although apparently most were free, preferring to keep the child home that day to do what they wanted with them instead.

I know all this as I heavily volunteer at the school, which is excellent if you engage, the teachers are fantastic, so much so that my youngest has just started reception there. It’s not the teaching staff - it’s the demographic of the area that brings it down.

I am involved in organising a year 6 residential this year as I think it’s so important. We had a parent meeting about it last week. 3, infact, as it’s so hard to get any fucker here to take any interest at all and set foot in the school. We have managed to get the price to £60 for three nights which I think is great. The school have a fund for any parents who need financial help.

All three meetings, we had parents saying they weren’t wasting money on sending them. Or that if the school could take them on holiday, so could they so they wouldn’t be sending them in, they would take them away on those days themselves.

out of 90 kids in the year group, only 22 are going. It’s such a shame.

@carcassonne1 - you need to look in person at the 4 grammars and speak to the teachers to see what you actually think.
The grammar schools my DC attended have loads of extra curricular clubs and opportunities. There are a lot of people trying to drill their kids and some do succeed with drilling alone, but I think it is a minority. From our state primary, all the kids who got in where greater depth from an early age, avid readers and fast at Maths. None of them did years and years of drilling. Those who were middle set and tried that never got in.

So this is actually close to my heart as I have a 10 y.o. who is very bright (but not a genius). I'm not a Brit or Indian and I cannot make up my mind, just sitting on a fence at the moment. We are considering for our son to take 11+ exam next September. There are 4 grammars in our area and our local comps are truly dire, so we have no choice really. It's either this or a private school which will be very difficult for us to afford.
We joined some 11+ groups for the closest superselective (90% of parents are SE Asian) and they proposed this kind of study regime for half-term: Wake up at 7am, breakfast, study from 9 am till 9pm with breaks for meals and 1 hour for outside activity. I'm just wondering what type of 9-10 y.o. would happily submit himself to this kind of study regime without a cane or belt hanging over their heads? What I mean is that most of Europeans/Brits would consider this kind of life for a young child verging on abusive to say the least. Our closest superselective comprises of over 90% SE Asian students, so now I'm really wondering whether this is what we really have to do with our child in order for him to get there. And would it be really worth it for him later in life?
I've tried to find on LinkedIn what this school's graduates do later in life and it looks like most of them are doctors/engineers, but nothing extraordinary really. What I mean is, not CEOs making big money or scientists, famous writers/politicians or generally people I might have heard of. I've spent a lot of time in SE Asia and have many friends there and it looks like most of the kids' futures and careers as well as their private lives (wife/husband choice) are dictated by their parents and the main topics of discussions with parents seem to be: 1. food 2. education (esp. maths) 3. cricket. I would rather for my son to have a more rounded education/development, and to be more open-minded in life.

So, honestly, what is the reason that some superselectives comprise of over 90% SE Asian kids? Is it thanks to this educational regime? And is it really worth it to drag the child through it? I would like to make the best decision for my child's future.

@Mydogisamassivetwat - I think humans are very adaptable and it sounds like these communities have strong values of their own and have settled themselves into a culture that makes them happy in other ways, not based on money alone. They have accepted their lot and are simply making the most of what they believe they can aspire to. They see no point in aspiring to “more” because it is out of reach and exhausting for them to get there. And a life on benefits seems to be easier.
Just like a middle class person may have the inherent value of sending their DC to uni ingrained and it is given in the cradle, whether it makes financial sense or not.

We also have estates like that in London, quite a few close to my house and the Uber drivers living there will constantly complain about the concept of a underclass and what they get up to. However, here a lot of the schools and head teachers are doing their level best for these kids and as it is easy to get around and see an alternative life in person, many of the kids are getting out. The way out is just more visible for them and they get taken by school to the Natural History Museum and to the Bank of England and these things do help.

But my lived experience shows that they aren’t gagging to get out of poverty.

I see it eveyday. I speak to people all the time. They don’t want a different life, they are having a great time. So much so that sometimes, I think I am the fucking chump in all this, they seem happier than I do.

I see it through work and so does dh, we both work for the local authority we live in.

They don’t see themselves as being trapped in poverty. I’ve never, ever spoken to anyone who is upset by it. I work in the local community so I speak to a lot of people, i volunteer at two local schools as a parent advocate, I see a lot.

Honestly, it’s easy to think that people want to “better” themselves. IME, they don’t. They wouldn’t accept help. Most of the parents at my children’s school went to the same school themselves, people don’t leave this area, so they see it as the enemy still.

There is a massive underclass in this country and people can’t accept that they are happy being that way.

“With boarding going up 20% it would be at least £500k to board at a majority of private schools. I can understand why families would rather all relocate for a free state that might be getting similar results.“

There are good private schools in places like Mumbai too, with excellent results like Ambani and they take in poorer kids on full scholarships as well. Schools and unis are improving in China as well. Singapore has always had good schools too. The pull to the UK with the declining economy is far weaker than it used to be. The Chinese/Middle Eastern/Indian/Singaporean schools are catching up fast and feeding into the top US unis now, not UK anymore. The US knows this and wants those kids. Trump will be gone in a few years. As usual, the UK politicians do not seem to understand what is going on or what is importantly. In their arrogance, they are always behind the wave.

It is the left liberal elite who have created a system for themselves via private schools and leafy catchment comps to keep the poor bright kids out of any hope and keep them trapped on benefits and in poverty and unable to escape that fate. It does not need to be like this. Like I said, every teacher knows the bright kids with potential who could get out. They need to get out as early as possible, ideally before reaching teen years. It does not need to be based on a random test taken on 1 day age 10. It could be based on years of data instead.

At least for grammar school you need some brains to get in. There is zero requirement for brains to get into an outstanding leafy comp, money alone to buy in catchment will do the job.

No, for that to happen, there would have to be grammars in every town in the country. Only a small portion of children go to Grammar school.

It is the grammar school system results in a school filled with children who lack educational aspirations.