Candidates flying from overseas to sit super-selective grammar 11+

I am referring to the majority of the nation, not just the grammar school population. This highlights the fact that it is culture specific not a phenomenon experienced by all immigrants.

GL (which Araminta was talking about) does test English but it’s on the VR paper. Most schools opt for 2 comprehensions then sometimes a separate SPAG section before the ‘normal’ VR questions start.

Indians make up over 90% of QE!

From what people are saying about some children in grammar areas getting a place with a few months' practice and a bit of rudimentary familiarisation, I'd suggest that these schools probably have different entry standards to super selectives with no catchment.

In Sept 2024 QE in Barnet had 3,433 boys taking the test for 192 places. The waiting list usually seems to end up offering up to 30/40 beyond that by the time the term starts in Sept, as not every boy in the top 192 accepts his place.

As far as I can see (maths not my strongest suit), that means you have to be in the top 6-7% of applicants - some of whom are the cleverest boys from around the UK - to get a place. From what I know of boys who have either prepared for or secured places, the tutoring and parental input is intense and starts in Y4 at the latest. At pick up at my son's primary last week I heard two Y2 parents talking about how they had started working with their sons at home on CGP books (and they weren't British, fwiw). It's definitely not enough to be 'working at greater depth' across the piece and an avid reader.

Is the pressure for places as acute in counties such as Kent and Bucks that have retained their grammar schools in greater numbers?

As usual @CurlewKate is right (all 3 times 😄). What the 11+ mostly tests is the ability to pass the 11+. It doesn't really have any wider credence than that, and there is no direct correlation between 11+ scores and GCSE results 5 years later, let alone beyond that. Data on this are readily available, but grammar schools are somewhat loath to share it...

There is of course a small percentage of children who are achieve top grades throughout their academic education; a much, much larger percentage experience peaks and troughs, for myriad reasons.

Well, I guess it depends where you live. Where we live in Herts, there are 4 grammar schools but some catchment covers part of London and lots of kids come from Harrow where parents pay over 2500GBP for 1 year tutoring course. It's a big, big business. You have no choice - you have to tutor as in all of these 4 grammar schools there are 1000 kids taking the exam each, fighting for 65 places. It's hell.

for our school I really doubt it is any kid who was not at least greater depth in Maths all the way through primary.

Greater depth alone in Maths won't get into any grammar school in London.

I am sure DS would have been fine in the local comprehensive too, but he will be far happier at the grammar with lots of boys just like him. There are a lot of clubs there that will suit him as well. It aligns with his interests.

I think this justify for the government to start charging levy and fees to grammar schools.

@CurlewKate - in London there is never going to be an irreversible impact on your future based on what school you attend at 11. Lots of kids change at Sixth Form anyway.
11 plus is the start of the journey, definitely not the end.

@Dtnews - DS wanted to do 11 plus and enjoyed it. We only started quite late in the Easter holidays of Year 5, very casually. We only did the GL books and one mock. It was enough for DS to pass all the tests.
The non verbal people keep mentioning, it was literally just one book of concepts we went through and one practice book. English we barely did any extra work as DS is really good at that anyway. Maths we had to do a bit on Algebra and ratios from memory as that had not yet been covered at state primary. DS has a good friend who is excellent at Maths and works online years ahead (own volition), he also got in and his parents did zero extra prep on the Maths. They did not need to.
That is it. It was not as big a deal for us as people make out. The hardest part was the actual tests as we sat 4 lots including stage 2s to maximise his chances of getting in to one grammar at least. The earlier ones were further practice. In the end, he passed all of them. And I am sure he will excel at KS2 SATS as well - although right now he is a little bored so is focusing on coding and learning another foreign language online. Some kids are just academic and keen and they enjoy it.

I am sure DS would have been fine in the local comprehensive too, but he will be far happier at the grammar with lots of boys just like him. There are a lot of clubs there that will suit him as well. It aligns with his interests.

It is simply not true that everyone who gets in tutors for years and years. Many do not need to. Some do and do get in, but for our school I really doubt it is any kid who was not at least greater depth in Maths all the way through primary.

@Araminta1003I have no issue with testing. I do have a problem with a test taken at 10 which can have an irreversible impact on your educational future. And maybe you have a
different 11+ tests where you are but here there is no English test-there is V and non V reasoning and maths.

@Araminta1003I have no issue with testing. I do have a problem with a test taken at 10 which can have an irreversible impact on your educational future. And maybe you have a
different 11+ tests where you are but here there is no English test-there is V and non V reasoning and maths.

@Araminta1003I have no issue with testing. I do have a problem with a test taken at 10 which can have an irreversible impact on your educational future. And maybe you have a
different 11+ tests where you are but here there is no English test-there is V and non V reasoning and maths.

But to pretend we do not already test our 11 year olds on a mandatory basis nationally anyway, is disingenuous.

In this case, why you still want to do 11 plus? Why not just let the school do their jobs.

@CurlewKate - the GL Kent test for Maths and English is in multiple choice format so the computer can easily mark thousands of papers accurately but the content is very much based on the KS2 curriculum. The issue is that they test in September of Year 6 rather than in May when KS2 SAT tests are taken.
But to pretend we do not already test our 11 year olds on a mandatory basis nationally anyway, is disingenuous.
They then go on to secondary school with their KS2 SAT results and many secondaries will then use those and a combination of CAT4 (including reasoning tests, not too dissimilar to a lot of 11 plus testing) in many state comprehensives.

All our kids are doing 11 plus anyway.

Faster - yes, up to a certain point which again depends on physiological maturity and ability to focus intensely and for longer. But speed doesn't help much if you just don't "see" the pattern/solution to a matrix. The way it's being tutored is actually verbal reasoning "turn the matrix clockwise, look at the shapes" etc. This reasoning (=conversion of non-verbal stimuli into verbal algorithms) will always take longer compared to the natural ability of certain brain just to "see" it instantly, without mentally manipulating the matrix.

It is of course entirely different for English and maths tests.

Interesting thread, though it has moved quite a long way from @PopcornPoppingInAPan OP about DCs taking 11+ from miles away and even abroad. I don't know how often the latter happens, if at all, but certainly you can sit the 11+ for, say, Surrey even if you live in Yorkshire. The right to do this is enshrined in law - it's known as The Greenwich Judgment (1990).

But the onus is on parents to ensure that they meet all the other criteria of any given school, and to be able to attend the school in practical terms. Every year posters on MN (and other fora) pop up saying 'my.child has got.a place at x school, can anyone advise me how to get them there? Is there a bus?'', Or something.similar.

@Araminta1003The test does vary. In Kent at least, the 11+ bears very little relation to SATS. And @Ubertomusicof course it’s coachable. Otherwise kids wouldn’t get better and faster with practice.

How many 11+ grammar tests focus solely on maths? None. It’s the only STEM-related subject you can think of in the 11+ test.

Some people think the school should be the hub of the community and services should be offered out of the schools on eg weekends to build a rapport with the community.

Exactly. The schools where we are do have good funding. More than schools in better areas. It’s the community that’s the problem.

The reality is that in poor areas the Government needs to invest far more in education than it appears willing to do, to compensate for the lack of aspiration and poverty, that is generational.

I strongly disagree. Schools in these areas are often well funded. The investment is needed in the community.

I was just Interested as I come from a council estate background and my sister won an assisted place to a private school. (This was back in the 80s) education can be a way out. Not always however. My sister is highly intelligent but has been diagnosed as autistic as an adult and as such has always found it hard to get onwards and upwards with work colleagues in a social way. Anyway I digress. Sorry to derail the thread.

Well good on you for making the best of the cards you’ve been dealt.

Some parts of NVR for super selectives are uncoachable, and I'm speaking both as a neuroscientist and a parent of two very different children, one required no tutoring as it's how ASD brain works naturally, another one I wouldn't even think of tutoring into this level of NVR as it's pointless suffering.

It's not a myth.

(Of course 11+ tests vary and not every grammar does NVR).

Skills/abilities you need for 11+ are useful for maths and other STEM degrees. This is the demographic of grammar schools and this is exactly why PP says "oh but they turn out just doctors and engineers, nothing particularly impressive" 😁 Their brains are wired like that and they have been selected on precisely this criterion! 😂