Candidates flying from overseas to sit super-selective grammar 11+

Well, more precisely, this sentiment is directed at a group of people who typically represent certain views and actions from their comments on the MN, as described earlier by another poster

'It’s worse in many ways than the private cohort because, at least with them, the parents aren’t forcing their children to take places from genuinely bright students, only for them to struggle and rely on tutoring to keep up.'"

@bluegoosie - how is the UK comprehensive system, where parents can buy a house in catchment for a chosen secondary school, socially and economically fairer than a grammar system? The former is entirely predicated on the adults actually using their purse.

Yes, that's exactly your problem 😁 People having "sentiments" on internet strangers have a problem, I'm afraid.

Thanks for providing more insight into this. Unfortunately, grammar school advocates tend to ignore such points, choosing instead to believe what they want to believe, all while signing up for tutoring classes in the meantime.

I know of a couple of corner shop owners who sent their DC to grammar schools. Do you call this social mobility or not? Simple question.

So? Doesn't change my sentiment on you based on what you said.

Somehow people want to believe that if you mix all the kids up, the educational values will transfer from one kid to the next. It does not work like that for children. It comes from the adults, not peer to peer.

On the other hand, you seem to believe that grouping "not typical" children who pass the 11+ exam together will automatically lead to better educational outcomes. It doesn’t work that way, it's more of a rat race.

Nobody disagrees with your point about parental involvement playing an important role, among other factors. However, this highlights how insignificant a role grammar schools actually play in society; their success is largely a function of resources and family privilege.

Nature vs Nurture in terms of cognitive ability

A lot of people have been talking about how grammar schools select students based on their "natural ability" and the tests cannot be coached for.

The closest scientific test that you can administer to test for "natural cognitive ability" is the IQ test and even that is considered a pale indicator at best. The VR and NVR parts of most grammar school tests try to imitate IQ tests (though it is not directly comparable).

If you examine academic studies of IQ tests in children from both twin studies and adoption studies one thing is immediately obvious: the genetic component of IQ variation increases significantly with age. IQ is very much influenced by your genes but only when you reach adulthood.

In adulthood the component of your IQ score that is linked to genetics is >80%. In children of the 9-11 age range the component of the IQ score linked to genetics is only 45%

This means environment plays a far bigger role in how well children do in IQ type tests compared to adults. Extrapolate this to grammar school tests that have even more inbuilt biases than the IQ tests.

This is not a shocking discovery. Of course children are more susceptible to their environment than adults. Family circumstances and educational quality have a far bigger impact on primary age children than adults and this reflects in any cognitive testing.

Only people have completing compulsory education and biologically fully maturing can you actually have a hope of accruately testing their "natural abilities" i.e. the genetic influence on cognition.

What grammar school selection does it pick

1. Parents who value education
2. Children who already have a good foundational knowledge
3. Relatively more affluent families over all

Just looking at percentages of pupils eligible for free school meals at grammar schools acros the country:

Only 6.7% of grammar school pupils are claiming free school meals compared to 28.4% attending nearby non-selective schools (https://comprehensivefuture.org.uk/interactive-map-of-grammar-schools).

The adult human IQ by has normal distribution, and the distribution does not change with regards to social economic status (in developed countries).

If Grammar schools were really taking the children who are destined to be the brightest adults - we should have the same socio-economic distribution of children at grammar school than in non-selective schools.

This shows that:

1. The effects of socio-economic inequality on education is not being address in primary schools
2. Grammar schools are socially selective , whether they want to be or not.

Whilst I can't be bothered to make suggestions to you about your children or anything else, regardless of what you share or don't share 🤷‍♀️

You are sharing so many story about yourself and your DD. I am making suggestions and comments based on the earlier discussion in this thread.

Now you're telling me what I should do with my DD's education.

You really have a problem, don't you.

it’s extraordinary that so many people still believe the myth that grammar schools
do anything to increase social mobility.

There is a fundamental misunderstanding at the heart of all of this. Somehow people want to believe that if you mix all the kids up, the educational values will transfer from one kid to the next. It does not work like that for children. It comes from the adults, not peer to peer.
So by all means, mobilise Tory style middle class armies of grandparents and volunteers to go read and do gardening/forest school in primary schools with deprived children.
But the real issue is that the teachers - the middle class ones - they will go and teach in the private sector and the grammar sector etc and the nicest comps. You won’t be able to get them into the worst schools en masse, unless you up pay there massively, increase teacher to pupil ratio, what they are doing is just not enough to make up for the shortcomings of the educational background.
The parents are the prime educators, of course, but much of it is not tiger parenting/tutoring what have you, it is simply passed down as reading habits, talking to your children with respect, feeding them healthy food, having university aspirations, limiting screen time.

The teacher also mentioned "It's worse in many ways than the private cohort because at least the parents are not forcing kids to take places from actually bright children then struggle and pay for tutoring to keep up."

I wholeheartedly agree, you should keep your DD in private sector.

However, no Government is going to be shutting down all the best performing state schools. It is never going to happen

Labour shut down most grammar schools 30 years ago. Weren't they just better performance because of selection?

You clearly have an obsession with the 11+ system and grammar school education, perhaps because you believe those admitted are genuinely in the top 5% of natural talent, unaffected by family culture or other factors. However, in reality, these factors play a significant role.

I've heard all this rubbish many times before, the reality is there upthread, in the post of @JeanPaulGagtier who appears to be a teacher.

"Why are they pulling apart that works and leaving the rabble?"

Why indeed 😏

taking out the highest achieving without catching up from the bottom

Where is the evidence for this? It is actually the opposite.

@Dtnews - you are clearly very passionate about your cause and idea of a comprehensive education for all and we can respect that.
However, no Government is going to be shutting down all the best performing state schools. It is never going to happen. They do not care about Education enough, it is never going to be top of their agenda nor are they willing to spend to do anything like that.

The most urgent social mobility issue is most definitely screen time and internet access. The rich elite are very protective of their children in that regard.

"The government will likely find a way to impose fees or levies on grammar schools, if not close them altogether, in order to generate more revenue.

The absence of grammar schools or academies does not equate to restricting access to education. In fact, more students from comprehensive schools are now attending universities, including many prestigious ones, and they are the generation driving this change forward. I’m not sure what definition of 'elite' you are using, though. I hope the elite mentioned is not a single mum from proverty but send DD to prep school or expert in 11 plus tutoring or nuroscentist specialist.

The VAT was always a trick on the die hard Labour lefties anyway @Ubertomusic - especially coming from someone who actually knows the HR Act pretty well. More fool them.

I agree that class sizes in primary schools in England are far too big. They should take the demographic changes and make them 25 and fund it accordingly. If you get the primary years right, then the rest is more likely to follow. Most of the research shows that those failing SATS at KS2 find it very difficult to catch up later.

Closing grammar schools and introducing VAT to wipe out middle class plebs from private schools is exactly what I'm talking about - restricting access to education and social lifts for lower classes.

The landscape is changing indeed, we don't need so many "managers" anymore to control the plebs for the elites, the plebs have been happy to sit in lockdowns obediently as they were told even without proper enforcement, that shows the elites they don't really need much resources to control the population now, this is exactly why the elites are closing the pathways and why the competition for the scarce remaining places is becoming cut throat.

There is no money for state schools from VAT y'know.

@carcassonne1 - I do not know. We spent a lot of time with our grandparents doing these activities. As did my own DCs. Music and singing, in particular, being read to by grandparents and they are the ones doing the board games and gardening as well.

“The landscape has changed significantly. Most grammar schools were abolished 30 years ago, and more closures are likely to follow. With the introduction of private school VAT and other changes, it’s clear the educational system is evolving. Just look at how the world is shifting”

Closures of grammar schools? That would be illegal. All they could do is abolish selection in the future for future year groups and make it catchment based.

The private school VAT is about to fail in court as well. It will probably get watered down massively.