Daughter refused Sen school so upset

It is a moot point for the OP, anyway. DD’s section F is poor, not watertight.

For SEP to be included in F, it has to be from evidence it is reasonably required. It isn’t just included because parents push for it. If it was suitable to be delivered in groups up to 8 that is what the professional evidence would have stated. So, yes, the difference between 6 and 8 can be important. It absolutely is not better to make the provision unenforceable by swapping wording to vague wording such as ‘small group’. Though I am sure LAs would love it.

For a bit of context here, if a parent has pushed for interventions of 'not more than 6 students' to be written into the EHCP when that student is in a class of 8 students then this is a legal requirement which has to be met. The intervention will take place but there will be 8 students, rather than 6. That detail is unnecessary and could potentially put a small independent or special school off, as this would not be possible. Better to write small group intervention as that need could then be met. Instead of that, section F is now frequently full of specifics which some parents have pushed for after taking advice. This would probably be relevant and necessary in a larger MS school, but to reiterate, it very much depends on the setting to which OP wants to send her DD. Hence my advice to look at section F and check whether it's relevant or off-putting to that setting.

Let me re-phase that then. LAs do not include provision in F that is not legally reasonably required. There may be provision the LA object to/claim isn’t reasonably required that has been Ordered. There may be provision some schools think isn’t reasonably required but has been deemed to be legally reasonably required by others. But if it is detailed, specified and quantified in F it has been deemed to legally be reasonably required.

*unnecessarily

They do - and they admit it and will apologise for the "unnecessary bloated" section F when they send out consultations.

LAs don’t include provision in F where it isn’t absolutely reasonably required.

Exactly my point, which is why all of the extra detail in section F needs removing if it's there in the first place and not absolutely required. The LA are responsible for ensuring schools meet need in section F and if this is beyond what smaller schools can commit to then they'll say they can't meet need.

Yes, you can still appeal.

The LA cannot force a non-section 41 school to take a student or be named in the EHCP.

Hence saying non-wholly independent… Section F is still not irrelevant for a place in a wholly independent school and the LA still remains responsible for ensuring the provision is provided.

That depends on the school. If section F is written for a large MS school and OP wants her DD to attend a smaller independent or special school then large parts of section F are frequently irrelevant and off-putting to those schools. The LA cannot force a non-section 41 school to take a student or be named in the EHCP.

OP’s DD’s section F is not too detailed, specified and quantified. That is part of the problem. It is vague and woolly without all the provision reasonably required.

LA’s don’t write provision in F that is unnecessary. SEP in F has been judged to be legally reasonably required.

A detailed, specified and quantified section F does not shoot parents in the foot, especially when said parents need to appeal for a special school place. If F is lacking, it is more likely a MS is judged to be able to be legally named even if that isn’t actually appropriate. In cases more generally, just because a school raises concerns when consulted doesn’t mean it meets the legal threshold to not be named. Non-wholly independent schools can be named even if they object.

No LA would go to tribunal defending trying to force a minimally verbal child into a mainstream setting against LA Ed psych advice and parental preference.

They do! Even when said MS states they can’t meet needs. It is about delaying. Particularly important when OP is EHE. Because LAs know it kicks the can down the road and a proportion of parents EHEing will continue to EHE rather than appeal. Just like the OP is considering.

No LA would go to tribunal defending trying to force a minimally verbal child into a mainstream setting against LA Ed psych advice and parental preference.

Arguing over which specialist setting, the LA offer or an expensive indie, yes. Arguing about how many hours of support and the precise nature of the speech therapy package, yes. Arguing about whether a 23 year old with severe learning needs should be moving out of an education setting into a non educational social care based setting, yes.

Have a look at Section F in her EHCP. If there's too much in it, it will put schools off and they'll say they can't meet need. There's only so much capacity, so many staff and so many hours in a school week. If you've pushed for everything humanly possible to be written in there with specific numbers of students in interventions etc. schools won't even consider it. Nobody tells you this do they?! There's a general trend at the moment for SEN parents to push for everything they can for their child (understandably so) but the bigger picture is that further down the line, when schools are sent these consultations from the LA, it's all of the (accountable and legally required!) detail in section F that will shoot these parents (and ultimately these children) in the foot. Ask for an Annual Review and have everything unnecessary removed.

Whilst this isn't overly helpful, it's far easier to get a placement once in the school system plus they can come up with bespoke arrangements within a mainstream school which we arranged (sen schools couldn't meet my DD's needs as she's extremely bright). Considering you aren't coping at home, is it possible to take the placement offered then work with the system to be transferred if they cannot cope.

I’d contact the MS she’s been allocated and ask to speak to the head urgently. I’d then go and see them alone explaining the situation and have dh or someone safe bring her to wait in reception to pick you up.

LAs don't normally persevere with cases they know they aren't going to win

Yes they do! The statistics speak for themselves. LAs spend extortionate amounts of money defending indefensible cases often against unrepresented parents.

You should appeal. Personally, I wouldn’t bother formally requesting a reassessment of needs. There is no guarantee that will lead to the LA making a different decision and it potentially just wastes time. Appeal and seek an independent assessment as part of that.

Be careful with SENDIASS. Some are good but too many repeat the LA’s unlawful policies. IPSEA and SOSSEN are better sources of information.

You should check if you are eligible for legal aid.

She should request updated EP assessment first. If the LA agrees to this it could solve all the problems without needing to appeal. Sendiass should help advocate - or the local parent/carer forum if you have one.

I would also go to your local sendiass and ask for their support with advocacy for you with the LA.

Really the only way is to appeal and fight it. It’s terrible but many LA are purposely denying support in order to save money.

They knock you down in the hope you’ll give up the fight and even if you don’t give up the fight then they’ve saved themselves a year or so of funding while you’ve been fighting it.

You completely have my sympathy having a child with additional needs is exhausting enough without the added stress of EHCP appeals. I wish I had something more helpful to say.

Sorry but she must have seen an EP or she wouldn't have an EHCP. They must have contributed advice to the EHCP. If you can find the original bundle of paperwork it should be attached.

You actually don't need to move straight to tribunal. You already have an EHCP you are requesting an updated Ed psych assessment as her needs have significantly changed. Do that first because if they agree to that it could save a lot of time, effort and bother. Or employ your own EP.

If they insist on mainstream I would take her along to meet the senco of the named school. They may become an ally supporting you in requesting specialist if they feel that she won't manage there.

I would be very clear that your parental preferences is for specialist and that you have every intention of progressing to tribunal. LAs don't normally persevere with cases they know they aren't going to win, but you need updated EP advice to support your case and that is the top priority.

Ask on the SN boards on here OP, there is advice out there that can help you through everything. The right school place will make a huge difference to both your lives.

You need to appeal. You and your daughter shouldn’t have to go through this, but special schools are under so much pressure to provide more and more places that appealing may as well be a normal part of the admissions process.