How to know if my child is grammar school material?

Yes, let’s all sink together.

This is why the grammar school system is terrible. They should abolish all grammar schools and let kids flourish without being stressed by tutoring.

Not Kent so a bit different.
DD was working at greater depth across all subjects from day one and while no teacher in our Non Grammar area school would say she was a good 11+ candidate her Y4 teacher when asked said while she couldn't comment she felt DD would probably do well. We got a once a week tutor from the last term of Y5 for an hour and that was it but the key was DD really WANTED to do it and is very comfortable with exams and tests, I think she actually thrives on them. She did really well in the 11+ but equally academic DC didn't and one child that nobody would have expected did incredibly well. The school wasn't involved at all but the parents whose DC took the test all discussed it and swapped info.
We actually opted for Private instead due to distance
The real key is that the DC have to be motivated to do it and do well, if they aren't up for it its very unlikely and its a shame to make a child do loads of extra work so young anyway.

I think it has to be a mix of academic ability and the child's personality.

My oldest is at grammar school. She always achieved well at primary but more than that, she absolutely loved learning. On her own accord she would come home and read more about the things she was learning at school. I have always thought she is the exact type of personality that grammar school is suited to.

My second child is in Y5 and taking the 11+ this year. On paper he is probably naturally more academically 'gifted' than my oldest but he does not have that passion for learning and school is very much something he just has to do - zero enthusiasm for any subject. I'm not sure he'd thrive in a grammar environment (but then is that a reason to put him in a school that's just 'okay' if he passes? This is the dilemma!).

My youngest child is not particularly high achieving at school but loves learning all the same. I don't think I would force her to work towards the 11+ if her chances of passing are very small, regardless of her interest in school.

We're starting tutoring in y4 which feels about right. My plan is to tutor all my kids and make a decision on the 11+ that's led by them on the basis that a bit of extra tutoring probably won't harm them even if they don't end up at a grammar. I did the 11+ myself and quite enjoyed prep but it was extremely low key which is probably shaping my opinion on it.

I wonder about DD. She doesn’t ask particularly searching questions about the world around her, not to an unusual degree for her age anyway. She’s not particularly sophisticated in conversation. So absolutely nothing gave away how academic she would be until our 2nd parents evening when they told us she was flying through the work and picks up things without trying in a way that’s ’almost spooky’. Until then we were convinced she was very average.

Does anyone else have a child like this? All I ever read about is clever kids who are extremely eloquent and interested in Ancient Greece etc but DD still makes a lot of poo jokes and couldn’t be less interested in ‘educational’ topics outside of school

I'm a former 11+ tutor and I'll tell you a secret- it's all a bit of a scam.

A few sessions in Y5 to familiarise them with the test can help.

As for the Y4 group sessions, I could have told you on day 1 which kids were going to pass, and tutoring made very little difference. MAYBE there were a few on the borderline who just squeaked a pass with a lot of tutoring, but they are likely to find grammar school hard.

I had one lovely young man who showed up with 5 weeks to go and I gave him a practise test which he immediately passed with flying colours. I told his parents he was going to pass either way, but did they want to continue, and they said they did in order to boost his confidence a bit. I have no doubt he is going to be doing brilliantly and would have done with or without my help.

I had another girl from Y4 and she was the sweetest kid but I knew straight away she probably wasn't going to get there. Her Mum got me to do some extra 1-2-1s but she just didn't have the mathematical ability to pass, although I pulled out all the stops to try to help her. She went to a Catholic school and last time I saw her she was really happy.

You would expect a grammar school child to be exceeding age related expectations all the way through primary school.

I’ve had 2 older children, and in my experience, the children ahead in reception and GD in year 2, are the sane children who are GD in year 6, (with the very odd exception)

I'd largely agree with this - while there are exceptions, when I taught Year 1 I was able to predict fairly reliably which pupils would end up at one of the local grammars. It's a combination of natural smarts, inquisitiveness about the world around them, mental attitude and maturity (around here at least, and despite weighting for age, successful grammar school candidates are disproportionately autumn/winter born children).

It’s probably too early to say but complicating factor for us is that we are moving house for schools so I don’t know whether to include grammars or not. Leaning towards not as I’d hate to put this kind of pressure on DS. Sorry this doesn’t add much but I sympathise!

@Ifyouknowyouknowyouknow
We're in the same boat - DD is currently only in Year 2 but we need to move soon as it will likely take a while to get her into a catchment primary for the school we want. We have super selective grammars local to where we live now, but although DD is working at GD in everything (and I do have slight misgivings about removing the grammar option for her as DP and I both attended one and loved it) we don't want to put her through all the hothousing that necessary nowadays, so will be moving to be near a high-achieving girls' comp.

All four of mine have been through the Kent grammars. My son's Y1 teacher told me she thought he'd go to Oxbridge, and I told her not to be ridiculous - I knew he was bright, but how could she possibly know. Well, he's currently in his third year at Cambridge, so she was right!

I think that you get a good feel for whether they are able fairly young - all of mine were very quick to learn to read, were on the top tables in their early years, and were academically able through primary. They were interested in the world around them and were constantly asking questions.

Kent is hideous in that everyone gets really competitive and ridiculous about it all - an able child shouldn't need more than an hour or so of tutoring and some practice papers from end Y4/throughout Y5 really and if you are starting in Y3 and doing hours a week, then that's a great way to put them off completely!

As others have said, there are always parents who claim their children haven't been tutored - which really means they haven't paid for tutors, but they've been doing stuff at home with them - some of the maths content on the Kent Test isn't taught until Y6, so they do need to be ahead of the curriculum at that point, and as it mostly comes down to speed and pattern recognition on the VR and NVR, the more of that you do, the better - all of mine had loved word searches, logic puzzles, codewords etc.

Don’t listen to the negative nancies. I went to grammar school and loved it - it stretched me mentally, it was wonderful to be surrounded by fairly likeminded kids who wanted to learn and the classroom environment was very calm/encouraging. I didn’t feel under undue pressure but there was healthy competition and encouragement to try hard.

My daughter is 6 and her class teacher has told us she is working in greater depth for everything and expected to be one of their top students as she goes through the school, so 11+ right now seems worth a try. We will probably do some tuition but not until 6 months or so before the exam.

I disagree with all the posters trying to put you off, I often wonder if it’s really just their underlying jealousy/negative feelings towards grammars. You don’t need to be ‘exceptionally gifted’ to get into a grammar, but I would say it’s realistic for the top 2 kids in each classroom.

How do you know how other children peoples children are doing academically though? My daughter seems really advanced for reception but she was also five on the first of September! Would she be very advanced in year one? Well I don't think she'd have struggled but she'd also have been a whole year younger than some of them. I don't have a clue if she's grammar school material or not. The ones who can't speak in sentences yet or hold a pen still have plenty of time to catch up and still stand every chance of overtaking.....

It really upsets me how we try to benchmark such young children because those labels stick, and if expectations on them are lower because they were 'behind' at 4, and 'expected' at 6 then those children might not be given the time and attention from schools to help them to achieve their potential later on.

I’ve had 2 older children, and in my experience, the children ahead in reception and GD in year 2, are the sane children who are GD in year 6, (with the very odd exception.)

My year 4 child is currently in a small 11+ tutor group. He had been working ahead since he started school. He loves his tutor group in a way that other children may love going to football training. It’s fun to him and definitely not as described on this thread.

I’ve also been thinking about this. I’ve got a summer born Year 2 boy who is doing well at school (and got “above age related expectations” across the board in Year 1) but is not “geeky” in the way I was at his age. I read and read all the time, loved puzzles, would set myself my own homework projects to do and wrote loads of stories and poems for my own amusement.

DS by contrast just likes playing with his toys, doesn’t really read independently (despite being in the top reading group in his class) and seems to do a bit too much chatting in class if his last report is anything to go by! I can’t tell if he will mature OR if his good performance so far just reflects having involved parents who eg have always read loads to him, and actually he will end up more average.

It’s probably too early to say but complicating factor for us is that we are moving house for schools so I don’t know whether to include grammars or not. Leaning towards not as I’d hate to put this kind of pressure on DS. Sorry this doesn’t add much but I sympathise!

@user148984678942
I think that with most really clever children you can tell a long time before they start school that they are academically strong. In the way that they pick up how to do things on their own. No need to teach them how to read or tell the time because they will have already worked these out when small.

If you don't know whether or not they are academically strong, it's usually because they aren't in that category of clever. This type of child really can score the very top marks in things like the 11+ with just a few hours explaining the mechanics of the tests.

If any child requires 3 years of tutoring I feel you are doing them a disservice because they are being asked to be something that they are not, and in my opinion this is a risk to their future mental health, even, or maybe especially if they do succeed in getting a place.

I agree year 2 is too early. DS had 1 hour of tutoring a week from the start of year 5 (plus homework). The aim wasn't to pass the test but to improve maths and English although they did also show them how to do VR and NVR as well.

DS passed and I agree with a pp that it's mainly attitude. DS is thirsty for knowledge and could read really early meaning he read all sorts of weird and wonderful books.

My dd was working at greater depth throughout her primary.
On the last day of term in year 5, I asked her teacher if we should aim for grammar.
On the back of the answer, she saw a tutor during the 6 week summer break.
She did say it was very obvious who had been extensively tutored and she was pleased she didn't have the struggle they did.

In year 2 though? Gosh they are 6-7, brains very much still developing rapidly....I'm not sure assessments such as 'expected' or 'greater depth' tell you very much at all at that age. It's all so tick box, you have to be able to do joined up writing by the end of year 2 be able to get greater depth in writing for example, hardly proof of underlying intelligence.

If you want to get him into grammar then you probably would be wise to get a tutor seeing as everyone else will be doing the same, so the bar is high. That said, it can probably wait until year 5/6. I try to stay away from all the competitiveness amongst parents as much a possible. If he gets in in 4 years time then that's great, but if not it's no big deal and he'll probably be happier elsewhere.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with

I personally feel if someone needs 3 years of tutoring then perhaps the grammar school wouldn’t be right for them

I think it became clear that mine were academically inclined from year 4ish. Hard to be sure earlier.

poor kids being tutored from y3.

i don’t live in a grammar area, fortunately (or unfortunately)

I have tutored students for Kent, and I never take on students in Y3 - they will burn out so quickly and/or lose interest in studying when all the parents seem to talk about for three years is grammar exams. Don't do it to your children! Just work with them yourself, do reading every night, learn new words as you are reading and work on school maths at a slightly higher level than what they expect.

I can usually tell in my first lesson whether a student is likely to pass the 11+. It's not about knowledge or intelligence. Maths can be learnt, VR/NVR can be improved with practice. It's all about attitude. A child who is keen, curious, focused and determined to do well is more likely to pass the 11+ regardless of knowledge level. I think a parent (or a teacher) should be able to tell by Y3 if it's worth going through the whole 11+ as it's quite an intense affair and may not be suitable for every child.

It was obvious my dc1 was was very able from toddlerhood. I agree some kids make progress later on.

put your dc on the waitlist for the tutoring in y4 and make sure you aren’t obliged to pay.

meanwhile do extension “work” at home - lots of extra reading and lots of puzzles and more complex board games. Play word games while you’re driving, practise times tables and set each other maths quiz questions etc .

you’ll get an idea of their potential if this goes well and can decide about the tutoring later.

First I would check whether the local grammar does GL or CSM as this will dictate the type of entrance exam (paper or online). If it's online, then take out a subscription to Atom Learning, otherwise go for some low-key tutoring from year 3 or 4 at the latest. It may sound early, but it can be done at a much lower intensity than if you start later. Combine this with reading classic British children's novels together (not exclusively, but expose them to the kind of vocabulary required for exam success). Good luck!

I don't think it is the case that needing tutoring must mean that you are not grammar school material - because most kids are heavily tutored and therefore getting amazing scores, you have to get your DC tutored so they stand a chance.

DC1 who got all 8s and 9s at GCSE and 4 x Astar at A-Level seemed very normal in year 2 and their overall academic strength only began to show itself half way through year 6. By year 7, it was obvious.

Incidentally, DC1 did not even pass the 11+ despite a good few months of tutoring. But that is a whole other story....

Maybe check to see if the school is performing well? Ours are all very low scoring on national league tables, which made me feel there was little point other than to avoid the other worse schools. If you live somewhere with a great grammar in the top 100 then maybe think of tutoring for Y4/5 just so they are used to the papers. That gives you more time to prepare.

My child is Y5 and she is in a tutoring group for 11+. We started in summer of Y4, no way would I start earlier. For me the key now is read a ton (fiction, non fiction, magazines etc), get brainy games (rubik cube, monopoly, junior scrabble etc), do some mental arithmetics and make sure they are performing well at school. FWIW my DC was already quite academic in Y2, excelling in every subject and still is.
so maybe we need less 11+ prep than others.