St Paul’s vs Westminster

Nice to have the view from South of the river. It states clearly on the Westminster website that 79% of Westminsters’ results at GCSE were 9s. It is the top GCSE school in the country, if only by a small margin. Regarding Saturday school, it is worth considering that an extra half a day is dedicated to sport during the week so the school week is still only 4 and 1/2 days. I would like to hope that if he wasn’t at school and was at home on Saturday he would be baking cakes and performing duets with his sister but I suspect he’d be lying on his bed playing video games for the entire day. So I’m happy he’s at school despite the complaints.

Hi, my DS is in his second year at SPS and loves it. Vs Westminster a couple of things to flag;

• Westminster GCSE English results much weaker than St P (41% at 9 vs 64% at St P) Maths about the same 94% vs 91%.
• I wouldn't put much store on Westminster's high number of 9's in Art remember that is mainly internal marked course work, with spot checks by external invigilator
• If you are interested in rowing St P is extraordinary the boat house is on campus (W has to schlep to Putney) and a friends son who is now in the UK team says the StP coaches were better...
• My DS is not at all sporty and has really found an amazing set of lunch time clubs the Improv Club sounds like it could be televised ! (They just got a special recommendation on the ISI inspection for clubs).
• the tutor system at St P - small groups of around 12 boys vertically through the school works really well for my son to see what will be coming and for us one point of contact who really knows what is happening with our son.

The Saturday classes and Sat pm sport at Westminster should not be under estimated the boys have a much heavier work load in senior school and that really doesn't leave much time for family life at weekends. Also my friend's sons who are there often stay till after 6pm or 7pm on weekdays so there is far less family life during the week too which may work for some.

Until now, it's actually been fairly easy to distinguish between Westminster's Sixth Form intake and the students previously at the Great School: the Sixth Form intake are nearly all girls. The government does collect statistics by gender and they show that Westminster's girls outperform their boys at A Level, which doesn't tell you much beyond that you make fewer mistakes selecting students at 16+ rather than at 7+ or 11+. Anecdotally, the girls also outperform the boys in Oxbridge results, by percentage.

We are still undecided and yo-yo-ing between the school. Leaning towards Westminster but would appreciate some insight.

Is cricket is also played by two teams (think SPS everyone plays). @Whatevers @Userid0 - if your sons play/played cricket, could you shed some light. Do they need to take the kit in from home or can they leave it at school for the term?

Westminster seem to have a clear edge on the Oxbridge results . They also have a big intake at sixth form. Appreciate your views if the brilliant results, are also in part due to the bright intake at sixth form ? This is of course difficult to measure, but existing/former parents would have a view. Do the Kings Scholars have an edge when it comes to university applications? (Noting that they are boarders)

Finally, with the school going co-ed, does anyone know, if this means that overall numbers at Westminster will go up, noting previous comments on the space and infrastructure.

Thanks for the feedback @NWmumofthree . Our DS loves most subjects (at the moment!) so we are trying to make sure all avenues are open for future choices. Is your DS very sporty? Would be good to get an insight on that side of things too!

SP mum here (don't know about SPJ well), and I agree that most boys go for STEM and Economics. Arent they great for today’s world and career opportunities? Large contingent of parents also seem to have those backgrounds, and the school has always had more of STEM culture compared to Westminster or King's. SP don’t have that ancient vibe, but the teaching is good across all subjects. And of course, they won’t hold you back if you want to study Arts! SP is a great school and a good value. Feel free to DM me if you’ve got any questions!

@Lolakath19 Do you have any feedback as to how you have found SPS teaching of arts & humanities subjects? Would love to hear your first hand experience!

I’m not sure boarding is better. If he has a long difficult journey, then yes. However, there isn’t much to do on Sunday. It’s not luxury in those boarding houses. There isn’t a big boarding specific activity programme(that I know of). They don’t have endless acres of woods and playing fields. My DS has friends who board but most aren’t. There is no barrier there. The culture is more one of mobility around town. They have freedom to go offsite to the local lunch places like Itsu and often go to Victoria street together in the evening. Of course he still mostly eats in school because it’s free and good food. But, in general, at least in the lower school, there is no advantage to boarding that I could see if he can get back to his home and bed in reasonable time. What you have to deal with and accept if you’re a Westminster parent is that it costs a lot, it has some gaps in its built infrastructure like a decent theatre(bought but not constructed) playing fields are beautiful but it’s only two football pitches in size which limits sports(still the largest garden square in Central London). The boys will need to work hard to keep up but then they are all clever boys so that shouldn’t be beyond them. You’re not getting a pampered environment like a luxury spa. It’s a school for bright kids and most of the resources go to teaching which is not so visible. SPs is too but, on the margins, it’s a bit more isolated and a campus not in the city. It’s 20 minutes even to Hammersmith so boys probably have longer journeys home. No boarders for the most part, but, much better local sports and theatre spaces etc. That’s the reason SPs moved out of town. For space and facilities. Yes, they are quite different. I feel Westminster it a commitment for parent and child. Probably SPs is a fantastic 5 day school with all the bells and whistles. For most people, it would be a dream. So, don’t worry. Go for what suits you.

Thank you @WiseGreenBee for sharing your thought process and good luck to your son in September.
@Whatevers - your post really helped me understand Westminster better. In many ways, it sounds like a fundamentally different school with a strong boarding ethos, when compared to St Paul’s.
Do parents or boys feel at any point, that to really get the best of Westminster, boarding (maybe later at sixth form) might be the best way to go?

@Userid0 - thank you. This does bring it alive.

Thank you @Userid0. I think this is going to be a much tougher choice than I anticipated! Obviously, it’s very lucky position to be in. If any St Paul’s parents could give their impressions (particularly around humanities and arts teaching) that would really help!

STEM at Westminster is widely recognised for its excellence, but the Arts and Humanities hold equal prestige within the school. This dedication to the cultural foundation starts in the first year at Under School and continues throughout the students' academic careers.

The headmaster, a passionate historian, leads a school rich in tradition, featuring its own archive room overseen by a devoted archivist. Throughout the day, students are accompanied by the chimes of Big Ben and the views of Parliament from their classrooms. Their experience is enhanced by thrice-weekly visits to the Abbey and the practice of Latin prayers, creating a unique environment that inspires a deep appreciation for the Humanities and the Arts.

It's important to consider not only the academic successes in these fields but also the number of students who choose to pursue A-levels qnd degrres in Arts and Humanities, as this indicates their genuine interest rather than just their abilities.

Admissions at Westminster place significant emphasis on skills in Comprehension, Writing, and Verbal Reasoning, alongside Mathematics. Once you join this school, you'll understand the rationale behind this focus. The culture of debate and the emphasis on learning through dialogue are integral to the experience. For example, subjects like art history are approached with seriousness and studied in art galleries through discussion.

While all schools foster a passion for the Arts and Humanities, Westminster provides a uniquely immersive environment that nurtures a love for them from an early age.

However, it's worth noting that some prospective parents and pupils do not appreciate this culture and tradition, viewing it as less 'modern' in their values, making it not suitable for everyone.

My comment is on Westminster, rather than a comparison vs SP.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DGlABKDNLMx/?igsh=MTNjdzZ1b21xcjJtYg==

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DD_tdYTOjaN/?igsh=MTZ3OWs3aTc5bnZ0Mw==

No one is picked up unless it’s a border going home for Exeat. The boys are 13-14. They are old enough to manage the tube. We live 40 minutes door to door and my DS is home around 6pm most days. He does sport on Saturday so is usually home by 5 after a fixture. A lot get cancelled due to the weather so he’d be back early on those days. Regarding sports I think it’s pretty well known that Westminster prioritises rowing. There are two football teams. The A team is probably c team standard at Eton. The b team is probably d/e team level. There aren’t any other teams so if your DS is a novice he might not be doing it. I think there are enough boys in South west and west London to fill SP with brilliant kids but it’s definitely difficult to get to from Hampstead and NW London. Nevertheless, there is probably not a big difference between the intakes of W and SPs. The numbers doing art and drama GCSE is about 20% at W. Yes, they do well. Not many don’t get a 9. I’m not sure why. No doubt the teachers are great. I don’t know SP well but I think the big difference is that Westminster is a boarding school. That means that the house is the centre of your school life. You have physical place to store things and change and shower and socialise. The housemaster handles detentions and absences etc. He is supposed to be your contact with the school. I’m not sure if SPs isn’t more like a regular school.

@DecisionMakingTime It does sound like we are having similar thoughts! We also prefer the campus feel of St Paul’s compared to wandering through the streets of central London and the commute for us to St Paul’s is easier. Our DS enjoys sports but would most likely be on a lower team (if at all) so if SPS boys have more social cache by being very sporty that might be a concern.
I generally would prefer a co-ed school so being co-ed at 6th form at Westminster is definitely a plus. However will girls being introduced in younger years, but not in the classroom for the 2027 cohort be positive / negative or make no difference?
And like you, we feel humanities and arts seem better catered at Westminster (I don’t know if that’s a reflection of boys / parents priorities or the standard of teaching - or a combination of both!) Comparing the latest GCSE results from each school (unfortunately I can’t find previous years to see if it’s a genuine trend or not) seems to back up this perception? If anything, this is the thing causing us the biggest pause for thought vs fees / commute on the other side.
We would love to hear from any SPS parents whose DC have pursued arts and humanities subjects and how they found them?

@WiseGreenBee - we are in the same position of deciding between SPS and Westminster for 13+. What swung the decision for you ? We are closer SPS and our son has a similar disposition, quite a case, not overly sporty but we would like him to get involved. I do feel more comfortable with the “campus” style of SPS. Thinking of my son wandering around the area looking for his next class at the Great School does seem somewhat of an alien thought. He seems keen on History and arts which appear stronger at Westminster (just a feeling, may not be true)

Can current parents at Westminster shed any light on the initial years in the Westminster Senior School. Do the boys adjust well to this somewhat university style of teaching in the Great School. If they participate in evening activities, how do they get home. Are most children picked up from school in Yr 9/ Yr 10 or do they travel back by tube (hitting rush hour ?)

Well done on making your decision! We are currently deciding between these schools but for 13+ entry. Before receiving offers we all felt SPS was the right choice if DC was lucky to get through, but the comment from @Dancingby above about Westminster having stronger humanities (and arts) subject teaching was something I also had a ‘gut’ feeling about which is causing us pause for thought. Does anyone have any insight about the teaching in humanities and arts at both schools? It’s clear Math and Stem are equally strong at both. But if you look at Art GCSE results (for example) at Westminster vs SPS there is a massive disparity that is very surprising.
However the fee difference will be tough, and the setting of Westminster feels amazing for 6th formers, but less so for 13-16 year olds. It’s proving a much tougher decision than I expected!

I don’t think SP is planning on cutting on bursaries, they have communicated they plan to increase the number of bursaries by 10% next year (there is around 140 people in receipt of bursaries at the moment of which c100 have more than 75%+). A lot of the money for bursaries comes from parents / old Pauline’s. Donations last year amounted close to £2m.

I think your numbers might be out. It’s probably more like £1 million. Still a lot of money. Anyway, I haven’t heard of people leaving Westminster. I take your advice that they have. Westminster didn’t think its parents were going to leave en masse so it didn’t trim its cost base to give a discount. That’s a pity. Maybe these schools could do with cutting back on so many directors and heads of this and that. Whether this helps the OP, I doubt. Just musings really.

Do these schools have the same level of endowment funds? I thought they did. It is only Eton (and I think Winchester) that have hundreds and hundreds of millions in endowed funds and growing.
Brighton College and Harrow are the ones selling their brand abroad to raise revenue. I suppose Westminster and Eton are too posh to do that.

I would still choose St Paul’s in this environment. They seem on the ball about the whole thing. The educational outcome is pretty much the same.

Westminster parents "not making a fuss" is objectively untrue. I honestly wish they didn't complain as much as it's all they talk about (parents have left due to VAT changes).

Parents at Westminster do not have more money than St Paul's parents. St Paul's have undercut EVERY school including their sister girls school. Westminster isn't a government aligned school.

For the OP the only consideration is can SPS absorb close to £10m in additional VAT YoY for the next 7 years. That is unlikely. There will be a correction in that term, outreach aside.

I don’t know much about SP but Westminster has had to cover a huge business rates bill. It’s got to live within its means and it doesn’t have a lot of outside revenue sources. It’s not really in a position to offer discounts. As much as I dislike the outreach cult I don’t think it costs that much. Most costs are staff salaries. St Paul’s will need to remove the discount if it wants to recruit and retain the best staff.

Yes of course they will survive @Whatevers - but they are not currently competitive on price with St Paul’s boys. This VAT has raised some competition issues for schools, because those doing the “right” thing by prioritising outreach/bursaries may well be punished for it, indirectly, by being undercut by other schools who are cost cutting.
It is all rather confusing because the Government themselves suggested that schools should cost cut to “absorb VAT”. And some of the top schools have decided not to do that. Cost cutting for many means cutting bursaries and outreach. There is a massive contradiction there.

Westminster parents aren’t happy about VAT but don’t make a fuss about it since they can afford it. A lot of people will be able to pass on the extra costs by asking for higher salaries or squeezing a bit more out of their businesses through price rises. Westminster sees itself as part of the Establishment so, while they make sympathetic noises to parents about VAT and talk about it as unfortunate, they go along with it much like the King does with his government. They will survive.

Yes @Dancingby - good point regarding Saturday school. That is a big consideration for the OP whether they like the idea of that or not. Westminster has a particular ethos and the OP needs to understand what they are paying the extra for.
It is not about making this political, but Eton and Westminster, in particular, see their role as contributing to Education as a whole and the parents who use the schools need to understand that. The institution is more than just the kids they educate.