St Paul’s vs Westminster

It would be great to continue to hear any experiences from current parents of either school, positive or negative. It’s really helpful for those of us who have to make a decision (and hopefully you aren’t put off by trolls who seem to have too much time on their hands to write an essay on a thread for their own amusement…)

anecdotally the Oxbridge exits made of gap year students really isn't a thing.

But logically it's not sustainable to cook the exit books over many years as the gap year pool would exhaust.

You would have a cadence of good year then bad if that really happened.

@north51 I think I understand.

So the 90/211 Oxbridge offers at W could look something like say 50 (upper sixth boys) + 28 (say 40% of upper sixth girls) + 12 (gap year applicants not in the upper sixth) or some numbers along those lines. We just don’t know.

Thanks for highlighting. There is indeed a lot of context needed. I think one naively assumes that university destinations are directly proportionate to teaching brilliance but of course there are so many other factors at play.

Name changed for this. Couldn’t agree with the directly previous poster more. You’re talking about two great options with very different feels. Historically the products of both were very different but both benefited from a great education. Surely the answer lies - as others have suggested- in going to see the schools, meet the boys. The answer does not ever at this level lie in statistics (!!) and I’m slightly appalled by the reverse engineering here. At 11+ you’re talking about seven years of your child’s education: where they will study, make friends, grow and learn. The idea that you’ll base that decision, even remotely, on some perceived percentage increase of their “Oxbridge” chances (or their GSCE or A level scores) is not just intellectually impoverished, it’s also foolish (it also doesn’t to the best of my knowledge take in key info such as SEN which as far as I understand in relation to these schools is highly relevant).
I really hope your son has a wonderful time at whichever school he and you choose and finds the path right for him both at university and in life. FWIW a dead set on Oxford/Cambridge approach is unlikely to lead to happiness long term whether they ultimately (in 7 yrs time!) get in or no.

All schools and colleges - state and private - don't state if the Oxbridge offers are current students or students who are post A levels when they publish Oxbridge stories on their websites. You have to take it all with a pinch of salt and it's no basis to choose a school for your dc when they are 11/13.

Not sure what you mean by cohort, but if we take as an example students receiving offers this Jan 2025, some of them will be in the current upper 6th (or Remove as it’s known at Westminster) and some will be post A level (ie on a gap year). So W might say we got X offers in Jan 2025 and I don’t think they differentiate between pre and post A level offers.

I suggest that W students are more likely than the average student to have a 2nd go post A level rather than go to their 2nd choice. It used to be called applying 7th term and was the most common route for schools who targeted Oxbridge as you spent your whole term preparing for the exams and interviews. I don’t know whether there are statistics on offers pre and post A level so this is just my hunch.

wow! Lots of well informed parents. Thank you!

@north51 -I plan to do just that, hang around when the schools close and see how I feel.
I don’t think I understand what you mean by 3 year process. What do the students do for an additional year then? Gap year ?
Are you saying that the 90/211 Oxbridge for Westminster could be comprised of offers made to a single cohort, but potentially across different years?

Definitely not a deciding factor certainly but good to understand what’s behind the statistics

Did you not get a gut feel when you went round the schools? They are very different, albeit they both get outstanding results.

Why don’t you stand outside in the late afternoon when boys are leaving and see what impression you get.

Try not to get hung up on Oxbridge offers. The landscape there is changing rapidly and by the time your child reaches 6th form their interests may have changed and the admissions criteria may look very different. I have a hunch that Westminster regards all uni applications as a 3 year process and it’s quite common (even normal?) for students to have a 2nd attempt if they don’t get in 1st time to Oxbridge/Imperial/LSE/med or vet school/top US unis and this may flatter their results.

Mom with girl in Westminster here so could only talk about Westminster(but live very close to St Paul and have loads of neighbors and friends kids going to St Paul. St Paul rowing is just incredible, the top in the world for many years, even B boat is better than many others potentially including Westminster. So if your son would like to have the best rowing life during high school then go for St Paul.

Teaching at A level in Westminster is truly fantastic, so much more interesting and in depth and goes beyond A level. Life in Westminster during term is incredibly busy. Kids could arrive for breakfast, often stay in the library and even pop in for dinner before going home if they dont board. There are always so many talks held by student society, debates, drama…its felt closer to life in University. The Westminster Abbey also made it more special. Personally if I had a boy I would send to Westminster even if my boy rowed.

I value your viewpoint, but I don't believe your question is inherently a better one. Nor the previous questions regarding humanities involvement or which school had a few more students earning A*. All seem to be nitpicking between two exceptional schools.

I think a more pertinent question would center around practical aspects like logistics, financial factors, Saturday school obligations, teaching styles, and the instinctive inclinations of both the parents and the boy.

Hi. My post was just meant to clarify as the fact was being misinterpreted, leading to the misconception that the high level of Westminster's Oxbridge offers is largely due to the girls which is simply untrue.

I share no opinion that certain universities or courses should be more desired, and believe that they are genuinely both great schools where boys can achieve what they put their mind into.

@Dancingby - but what does Oxbridge offer mean? If the school is doing more humanities/Classics etc then there will be more Oxbridge offers. The competition for Oxbridge STEM is greater with state school applicants? So how many Maths and Computer Science Oxbridge offers is surely a better question?

I didn't bring this up in my earlier posts because I didn't think it was meaningful, but since many have raised the issue, I’ll share my thoughts now.

Westminster boys receive a higher percentage of Oxbridge offers compared to those from SP.

As an offer holder, you might want to check with the school for more detailed information, but even with the data available to the public, it's fairly easy to analyse.

43% of Westminsters received Oxbridge offers (90/211), while 22% of SP boys did (40/175). Based on the total Westminster's sixth form students of 211, girls would be up to 70 and boys at least 140. It's worth noting that the new entrants in Westminster's sixth form are mostly female.

To put it simply, for Westminster boys to match SP's Oxbridge rate of 22%, almost every girl at Westminster would need to secure Oxbridge placements. This scenario assumes that almost no Westminster girl would attend any other universities like Imperial, LSE, or any Ivy League schools, which is far from the truth.

This is why I wouldn't encourage my daughter to switch to Westminster solely for Oxbridge, unless she has a strong preference for a co-ed environment and is focused on a STEM degree, where school and peer support can sometimes be lacking in certain girls' schools.

From what I know, the cohort I’m familiar with had about 50% of the girls and around 40% of the boys receiving Oxbridge offers, although this can vary each year.

When looking at boys and girls separately, the Oxbridge rates likely rank as follows: Westminster girls, then SPGS (40% with 44 out of 110), followed by Westminster boys, and then other schools. The girls outperforming boys anywhere is becoming less surprising and is a topic itself.

No doubt, someone will argue that a few boys might choose Harvard over an Oxbridge offer, and my figures could be off by one or two students and etc. Nevertheless, the overall picture stands the same. Oxbridge statistics exist, they shouldn't be a primary consideration when selecting a school. That said, there's also no point denying that Westminster boys have the highest Oxbridge rate among boys from any school.

Factors beyond teaching quality, such as selectivity, significantly influence Oxbridge rates. Your son is likely to do well at either school, so I believe that you can trust your instincts and go for the school you think he will spend the happiest years. If my son had gone to SP, he would have become just as fine a young man as he is at Westminster. Congratulations again.

Since my post this morning I discovered from their policy documents that Westminster allows for 'up to 70 girls' rather than 70-80 as per my initial estimate.

I've requested Mumsnet to remove this post so I can revise a few figures accordingly.

While the main message remains the same, it's helpful to have all public information compiled as accurately as possible.

That’s amazing detective work, thank you @user149799568
I know that there’s so many more important factors than these statistics but it’s just good to read.

It's been several years since I looked at this data and I got muddled. Some data on the performance of boys and girls at Westminster is available, but it's from the ISC, not the government.

Merging three files together, shortening some labels, and adding a few entries of my own, for Westminster in 2024:

Gender All Boys Girls
Candidates_Alevel 201 128 73
Candidates_ASlevel 22 17 5
Candidates_A/AS 201 128 73
Alevel_Astar 465 281 184
Alevel_A 218 140 78
Alevel_B 64 46 18
Alevel_C 17 11 6
Alevel_D 7 6 1
Alevel_E 1 1 0
Alevel_U 0 0 0

Alevel_Entries 772 485 287
ASlevel_A 22 17 5
ASlevel_B 0 0 0
ASlevel_C 0 0 0
ASlevel_D 0 0 0
ASlevel_E 0 0 0
ASlevel_U 0 0 0
ASlevel_Entries 22 17 5

Average Alevel/Cand 3.8 3.8 3.9
Average A/AS/Cand 4.0 3.9 4.0
% Astar 60% 58% 64%
% A/Astar 88% 87% 91%

So the girls were a little more likely to take 4 A levels, but it's almost certainly not statistically significant. The girls were 6% higher at Astar and 4% higher at A/Astar. I think these differences are smaller than when I last looked.

For some reason, SPS isn't included in the data, but I know you can get their numbers from their website.

Not a true characterisation -- we aren't aligned to Oxbridge (due to long standing academic ties) and we are not the only family with preferences for other unis.

Equally though surely Westminster is so much more than an Oxbridge factory? Because surely the Oxbridge focus by the parents (self selection) is exactly what would put plenty of people off the school in the first place? And the peer pressure if you are not one of the 40/50%? That would be enough for me to choose St Paul’s straight away. We do not all think the same way.

Thanks for putting this out there. It will help many parents in the coming years and sums up Westminster up perfectly.

@DecisionMakingTime Has your current school indicated if they think your DS would fit in better at one school over an other?
@user149799568 do you have a link to where I can find the A level results broken down by gender for an individual school as I can’t find anything online? It would be great to see the university destinations by gender too but I doubt the school would tell me (and I imagine them being quite annoyed if I asked!)

@WUSSP Yes, Westminster’s sixth form and the record number of Oxbridge offers, does seem like a compelling proposition and a good grounding for university but it is so hard to decide on a school for a 17 year old when one’s son is 10! The journey to W is longer for us as well and I do think about how convenient it might be for us to attend concerts, parents evenings etc.

@Hitoyou good to hear that your son is happy at St Paul’s. It’s just that I’m wondering if our son who isn’t particularly sporty but more academic/ history/ literature inclined, might be happier at W. Perhaps I am overthinking it and he will find his tribe at either school.
In some ways, the extensive sporting facilities benefit the less sporty boys, as they might not end up playing team sport otherwise.
We are definitely unprepared for regular 7:00 pm finishes .. that would be difficult.

@Whatevers @user149799568 thank for your inputs. Lots to consider.

We are still trying to make a decision here too! After lots of weighing up the pros and cons I think we would be going for St Paul’s, but the girls coming into Westminster (and the established co-ed 6th form) is the main thing giving us pause for thought (as that is such a big positive in our opinion).

Cricket is only played in Election term while football is played in Lent and Play terms so there are fewer matches than football. Again, a lot of those football matches were still cancelled. I’m not sure how many actual matches either schools would get to play. Yes, cricket is only an A and B team but I’m sure a keen cricketer would get into the B team at least. They have cricket as an LSA which is winter nets so that would be the way to go if you wanted to ensure getting in. There’s no compulsory sports team membership. Boys just have to do something for sport. It could be fives or fencing or something else.