St Paul’s vs Westminster

SP wanting to go co-ed isn't new.

<a class="break-all" href="https://www.google.com/url?q=www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6968955/George-Osbornes-old-school-St-Pauls-set-allow-girls-time.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6968955/amp/George-Osbornes-old-school-St-Pauls-set-allow-girls-time.html

A friend who teaches there also echoed what was said here - the conversation has been re-gaining attention recently, particularly as the preferences of parents are quickly shifting towards co-ed. More boys had been choosing schools like Latymer instead, and now Westminster. It appears the school is considering adapting to the preferences of a new generation of parents, many of whom may not even consider a single-sex environment for their sons.

I don't think they could ever fully 'merge' with SPGS, so it would probably be more like a girls' school and a co-ed school with the river and lots of politics in between, if it ever happens.

This is my understanding too.

www.westminster.org.uk/co-education-and-pre-prep/

It is realistic to assume that the girls would primarily join at 11+ or below, already changing girls' prep school scene at 7+ etc. Some girls would also transfer from other through or senior schools at 13.

It’s not a majority from WUS now. I think it’s around 55 now. Anyway, I hope Dr Savage doesn’t fall on his face like the last one did with the China project. Westminster might find it struggles to produce rowers and footballers and all sorts of other kids. They shouldn’t all just be experts at reciting Pi to 300 decimal places.

Another problem is that SPGS and CLSG start at 11, not 13. If you can get your DD off to a selective secondary at 11, why wait to 13? I do wonder if Westminster thought this through.

I can’t believe Westminster will still take 120 boys in 2028. I don’t know but I’d guess it will fall to maybe 80. If they eliminate the sixth form intake, the school would increase to 800 from 760.

Surely the only way to increase revenue while keeping academic standards consistent (or improve them) would be to broaden the intake pool via taking in girls ? Overall numbers for each year group would need to increase of course

The clever girl cohort is only so big and splitting it further is going to make it tougher to balance entrance standards since many parents of bright girls will also still want single sex. I actually don’t see the point of it. I also don’t see the point of Westminster going co ed either. It seems like a vanity project. A coed sixth form seemed the perfect situation.

Yes

Thanks for clarifying that @gladtidingss . I thought you meant SPGS weren't happy with the idea because they wanted to remain single sex. But now I guess you meant because they don't want to lose girls to a co-ed SPS?

My understanding was a merger wasn’t being proposed.

@Whatevers I see what you mean, but I read it more along the lines of a merger between the boys' and girls' schools which wouldn't necessarily affect the number of places? But maybe that isn't what @gladtidingss meant

Afraid I can’t share anything more in timelines because I really don’t know definitively. It was being very seriously discussed just before Covid and it has not gone off the agenda.

@gladtidingss - are you able to share anything more on timelines ? Is it just the sixth form ?

Going co-ed seems like the direction of travel on most of the boys schools, so inevitable sooner or later, and the girls intake, certainly appears to raise the bar (and results) at Westminster

I don't think SPS care a jot about entrance standards for boys and the effect on girls' schools, they want the best students and going coed ensures double the pool of candidates - hence Westminster's decision.

I actually think that might be a pretty dumb idea since London is already flooded with independent school places for clever girls. It’s the boys that are short of places. If both Westminster and St Paul’s cut their boys intake, the situation would be even worse. This will squeeze out places like G&L and City while entry standards for boys will get even tougher.

interesting - that's good to know! sounds like it would be a positive move for the school

I'm afraid I can't say much more because it would be too outing - let's just say I know a lot of people who work at SPS and it's definitely on the cards. Right now they're talking about more collaboration between the schools but that's largely to keep SPGS happy because they obviously don't like the idea at all. Some parents are also deeply resistant and have threatened to remove their dc if it happens. But it will sooner or later.

Can you say more about SPS going co-ed @gladtidingss ? I thought this was impossible given that there is a separate girls' school

I've sat in on sixth form classes at both schools, teaching is superb at both, you couldn't choose between them.

I am informed on good authority SPS will go co-ed sooner rather than later.

I'd go for the one with the easiest commute, SPS isn't 20 mins from Hammersmithmore like 7 mins because they have a gate that opens right next to Hammersmith Bridge so you don't walk round the long way that visitors do.

This isn't for the OP btw but for others reading. They're both great schools and your child will have a very privileged education at both

I’m not sure why gap year students would change anything because they are just last year’s students carried forward every year. People can analyse it till next Tuesday but it remains true that Westminsters are very bright and they choose a diversity of subjects, not just subjects with super competitive entry while they do very well in those competitive subjects too.

While I don't believe that Oxbridge result should be a factor for secondary schools, I also feel it's important to address misconceptions.

Westminster's Oxbridge results are not inflated by the inclusion of gap year applicants (or skewed by the girls, as previously noted).

When considering gap year applicants and etc, their Oxbridge rate for 2024 stands at 43% (90 out of 211). If we look at just the Remove pupils, the rate remains the same at 43% (86 out of 201).

Thanks for your comments - this is potentially one of the big positives of Westminster for us. I’d love to hear from St Paul’s parents (particularly any with boys in the sixth form or who have left) as to whether they felt there were any positives or negatives of it being a single sex school.

NC. I don't want to open the can of worms but it's worth considering your views on single-sex versus co-ed (or semi-co-ed) education, as I believe that’s an important distinction. We initially chose an all-boys school for our son, but later moved him to a co-ed sixth form (state) to give him the opportunity to learn alongside girls. While he was socialising with girls and active in parties, those interactions, limited to social settings, didn’t seem ideal to us. Collaborations with local girls’ schools were infrequent and often awkward, as, according to him, it was clear the main aim was to help boys learn how to interact with girls. It’s been lovely to see him now working alongside— and often for—girls, many of whom are brighter and more capable than him, exchanging different perspectives. Many of his friends, who were more reserved around girls or not interested in parties, had minimal real life interaction with them during secondary school and turned to online instead. While some parents may prefer this, it certainly didn’t seem ideal for us, and I suspect this is why more and more boys’ schools are going co-ed.