HBS v DAO twin dilemma

Perhaps go read again. OP has made it very clear that neither she nor DD1 are just looking at academic selectivity - they both like the small size and single-sex environment for DD1.

Your last paragraph is incomprensible, but I only used your logic to point out its flaws. Not being able to predict the future to know for sure how each daughter will fair at each school is an absolutely pointless argument because that's true for every school for both children and OP hasn't made any statements at all to suggest she believes one path is a guarantee of success.

Taking away choice or opportunity not always results in harm.

Yes, my argument is that parents shouldn't overthink about selectivity as an academic development factor when comparing these two schools; there isn't much difference in that regard. Additionally, twin A also participated (chose) in the DAO test to secure a place. However, there are many other differences that should be the main consideration, and certain aspects of the child's belief may not matter much.

Has the parent consider, beyond selective and academic, how other possible outcome of school compared to DAO?

On one hand, you're using the parents' and twin A's beliefs to argue for twin A, but on the other hand, you're using my logic for twin B without considering the parents' and twin B's will?

Taking away opportunity and choice is a harm of its own.

DD1 has chosen to work for a chance to go to HBS and achieved that. She desperately wants to pursue that opportunity she's earned for herself and OP as a parent believes that that is the best school choice for twin A becaue the size and environment are a better fit for her than DAO. Taking that opportunity away from her is harm, and it's incredibly unfair to do so in order to give her sibling the opportunity to their preferred school instead.

And by your own logic there is absolutely no way to know that DD2 won't do better at her second choice school than DAO, so there's zero harm in DD2 potentially losing the sibling place at DAO.

The opportunity to attend a more selective school, doesn't necessarily mean a child will develop better academically. The intense desire to get into these schools may be driven more by perceived "earn the place" rather than rational evaluation. It's the parents' responsibility to clarify what matters most in terms of selectivity and academic development.

Every year, some parents have the option to choose between these types of schools and opt for the less selective one for various reasons. For instance, one parent on the 11+ forum choose less selective schools when given choice between the exact two, looking back I don't believe they are harming their children by doing so.

They are individuals and should have been treated as such . So they both get to put down the option that they want and that they qualify to apply for .

I can't see twin A is being harmed

If you an't see the harm in actively denying twin A the chance to go to the highly academic school she earned herself a place at and desperately wants to go to where both she and her mum think she'll do better socially because it's more important that her sister get an unearned spot at her first choice school then there's no reason to continue this conversation. That's a bonkers statement.

She's acknowledged that both girls would probably benefit from being at separate schools and twin A is being harmed if they take advantage of the sibling policy at DAO. This is a long way from a no-lose scenario.

No, OPs opinion is a mixed one, I can't see twin A is being harmed. Twin B prefer better school but also think seperate school is a good thing.

@perplex I have zero clue what you're trying to say in your last comment about sibling policies.

Sibling policies can be a benefit to families - having siblings at the same school can ease logistics and it can boost one or more siblings as a happy side effect. It's often a no-lose scenario where using the sibling option only adds benefits for some or all family members.

But that's not the case for OP's family. She's acknowledged that both girls would probably benefit from being at separate schools and twin A is being harmed if they take advantage of the sibling policy at DAO. This is a long way from a no-lose scenario.

Yes, but OP is not sure which school Twin2 will get in the end - "the other school we like" or "we're stuck" school.

Yep. If the sibling place at DAO is revoked when twin A accepts a wait list place at HBS then twin B would end up at the first choice school she could get a place at without having a sibling in the selection process. That's why I put "random school" in quotes - it's silly hyperbole.

This applies to any school sibling admission policy. Why should it exist for some schools? Generally, it benefits the family as a whole, you can't just break that up as separate problem.

Presumably it wouldn't be a 'random choice allocated by the council' for twin 2, but whatever her highest preference that she could get a place at? Aka whatever was listed as 2/3/4 after DAO

And Twin2 is not "allowed to choose the school they want from the options available to them" - she will be allocated a place by the council.

Places are allocated based on the student's submitted preferences. Students get their first choice of the schools they qualify for a place at. Without the sibling link that is likely to be HBS for twin A and "Random school" for twin B because twin B chose not to attempt the 11+ to earn a place for DAO on her own as her sister did.

Using the sibling place path to give twin B an option she wouldn't otherwise have achieved for herself would be great if it wasn't at the expense of twin A. But it is.

Just read the original post:

"It's possible that twin 2 will get into another school that we like but it's also possible that she won't. The other school that we like is fine with great facilities but it doesn't compare to DAO in terms of results or extra curricular offer. If she doesn't get that school, then we are very much stuck!"

So they are risking Twin2's options in general.

Yes, I understand your reasoning, I just don't share this "equal footing" view. And Twin2 is not "allowed to choose the school they want from the options available to them" - she will be allocated a place by the council. OP says it's not a problem as other local schools are good too, just not as good as DAO.

No. Twin 2 is absolutely not being "sacrificed" in any way shape or form by allowing Twin 1 to submit her preferences based on her rather than her sister.

Here's how you can tell... if you removed the sibling link between the girls then twin A would be able to go to HBS if she chose that over DAO, and OP would likely have no problem doing that. Twin A is not only getting zero benefit from the sibling link, she's actually having her first choice option taken away from her by it right now. But twin B would likely never have had an option to attend DAO without being able to get a sibling place based on her sister's 11+ score, so attending "random school" as you say is where she would be without the sibling link.

As it stands now twin B is gaining access to her preferred option at the expense of twin A not being allowed to pursue her own preferred option. Allowing twin A to choose the school she wants for herself is just putting them back on equal footing where each daughter is allowed to choose the school they want from the options available to them based on their own performance and abilities.

It's difficult because if you send them both to DAO and twin 1 is unhappy, or has less friends than twin 2 she will be angry and feel resentful (even if she'd have been as unhappy at HBS). If twin 1 goes to HBS and twin 2 loses the spot at DAO twin 2 will resent her sister. Key is probably understanding that if twin 2 accepts the place would she lose it if twin 1 then took a waiting list place at HBS? If not that seems best solution.

I won't separate these issues; they're inherently mixed. It's the parents who provide tutoring opportunities or sign their children up for the 11+ exams, and it's primarily the parents' preferences reflected on the CAF form, which may or may not consider the children's preferences at age 10. In most cases, it relies on the parents to decide what matters most, rather than what the children think is best. If it were for university applications, that might be a different story.

Yes, it only takes sacrificing Twin2 to a random school, that's all.

This seems like enough of a diversion from the OP's issue to start a different thread if you'd like to compare the two schools in broader terms.

OP's issue really isn't about which school is better in some absolute terms (a measure that arguably doesn't exist), it's about individual preference for a specific student. They're both strong schools, but as you acknowledged they're completely different - HBS is half the size, all girls, and fully selective so the academic range is different. Some students will just prefer that setting over DAO in the same way I prefer camping to cruises. OP's DD1 believes that she'll do better and be happier in HBS's environment and OP think's she's probably right that that environment will be a good fit.

I guess it's usually a magic of being "THE top school" :)

In OP's case though it looks like the child's strong will which is understandable but in reality is not a 100% guarantee of anything really though motivation helps of course.

We used to live in the area and I know both schools well. I'd send both girls to DAO, it's a lovely school, academic enough and with lots of extra options. Children adjust to circumstances, and going to DAO is not a terrible situation at all :)

The alternative is Twin1 getting their choice and Twin2 ending up at random school as DAO sibling place will be withdrawn - Twin2 didn't sit their tests so they simply don't know her as a potential pupil.

HBS GCSE results in English and EngLit are not good for their intake. Some other subjects are not stellar either, but Eng/Lit are core, essential subjects and the school cannot manage to teach its highly academic and hardworking cohort to 8-9 standard 🤷‍♀️

Saw this question on another 11+ forum. Curious if Mumsnet responses differ. Both are state schools, but far apart and very different setting. DAO may have a bit more funding due to the provision, and top students at both achieve similar results. Why do parents think HBS offers more opportunities than DAO? Or is it just the preference for an all-girls school?

I'd also like to add I imagine this is a very difficult situation for you OP. Easy to judge from afar but challenging when you are in the midst! You sound like a great mum who is trying to work out the best thing for both their daughters. I hope the right path becomes clear.

Rock and a hard place and unfortunately this is probably going to create some serious sister angst no matter what. PP seem to be assuming that you submitted the original preferences despite how strongly DD1 felt about HBS, but maybe those feelings have really grown since preferences were closed, while DD2 has locked in more to the idea of going to DAO?

Regardless, I don't think it changes what you need to do now. It's not in your power as a parent to create equal outcomes for your children - you can't set the admissions criteria or control school allocations, you can't make them both the same type of student or social creature, and you can't control their respective 11+ performance/choice to sit. But you can still give them the same opportunity to each put down their own first choice as preference #1, and that's what you should do. DD1's first choice is HBS so she gets to put that down, and DD2's first choice is DAO so she gets to put that down, and you frame it to them just like that. How the admissions process works out isn't up to you - I honestly don't know whether DD2's accepted sibling place would be automatically withdrawn if DD1 then got a waitlist offer to HBS, but that's not something in your power to decide. Just like you couldn't control each DD's 11+ chances or performance but you gave each the same choice to sit or not.

I think allowing DD1 to submit the new preferences just as you would if she were an only child is absolutely the most fair option, but the reality is that there's a good chance that if DD2's DAO spot does get withdrawn (she just knows it might) she'll still be angry and want to blame her sister. Please be proactive and firm about this - it's ok to be upset and disappointed if she doesn't get her first choice of school from her preference list but she doesn't get to take it out on her sister. "You each got the same choices - whether to sit the 11+ and which school to put down as your first choice. It wouldn't be fair to let either one of you choose for the other."