11+ test: I think it's unfair and elitist

I think a big part of the problem is that there are too many invested people making rather a lot of money out of parents and schools. As the 11 plus exams aren't just done by state grammars but by many privates schools.

Personally, I think our current system is so fragmented and broken that a serious overhaul is need - where we look at the different types of school. I also have problems with faith schools, private schools and some of these large academy chains and pigeonholing children at 11, but that's beyond this thread.

@BellissimoGecko@BellissimoGecko sorry didn't mean to tag you.. @boys3 it's research I did years ago I've no idea.

Totally agree with you

of course if we lived in a 11+ area we’d try our dammed hardest to get the kids into the grammar. Luckily we’re not.

I was mostly posting this as an alternative to ‘the primaries should be teaching 11+ skills’.

No, either the 11+ tests skills genuinely universally taught as part of the national curriculum in primary schools or the grammar schools are responsible for making the tests absolutely fair and reproducible - which could mean that they have to have different tests or they must address any and all types of unfairness, which includes economic and practical access to tutoring and specific training. If they can’t do that, then they shouldn’t be allowed to select and all shoukd become comprehensives.

I have posted many times that I believe there may be a need for ‘exceptional ability’ special schools, co-located with one or more comprehensives per county, where, after full assessment by an Ed Psych and other specialists, an EHCP can name the special school for one or more subjects if the child’s ability is sufficiently far from the norm to be efficiently educated within a normal, setted, comprehensive environment.

I don’t think there is a true need for ‘normal’ grammars, where a percentage of children who could perfectly efficiently be educated in mainstream - and are in many counties - are artificially segregated from their like-ability peers, on the basis of a single faulty and unreproducible test.

Agree people carry that sense of failure with them for years, my nearly 75 year dad talks about having failed the 11 plus...

@LifedestroyerifYOUletthem this ST report? Although I think the link below may just be the summary.

https://www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/GRAMMAR-SCHOOLS-FACT-SHEET.pdf

I teach in a comprehensive school in an area with 3 grammar schools. For me one of the biggest issues with the 11+ is the effect it has on the children who don’t pass. So many children starting secondary already feeling like a failure because they didn’t pass a test at 10 years old!

@Rachelthieves "I think the real problem is that posters believe everybody should receive the same standard of education, when in reality many children don't need it or warrant it"

I think you said the quiet bit out loud.....

Surely we can agree that every child warrants the same standard of education? As a very basic human right?

Then educate that ‘problem’ 20% separately, by creating a whole raft of new high quality excellently resourced large Special Schools (including for behaviour).

Don’t cream 1-20% off at the top, leaving 79-60% in the same school as the ‘problem 20%’ (if that is indeed the figure).

It really isn't that simple, if only it was...

How can you say children don't warrant it?? It implies that they don't deserve good quality education?

I think what confuses me about your post is that you seem a bit surprised by this? I thought we’d all known for a long time that 11+ is unfair and elitist. That’s why most places got rid of it?

If you don’t want to take advantage of this obviously unfair mechanism then don’t.

Who is going to pay for that? While I actually think that could work, I can't see our government paying for that or tax payers pushing for it. Especially when grammar schools only educate about 5% of state secondary school pupils

Also the grammar schools we have aren't neatly placed around the country to offer this opportunity for all etc.

The only problem with the 11+ is that it is only available in only a few areas.
Grammar Schools and selective education should be available to all that would benefit from it. Selective Education could also mean in theory some one selected for a high level Sporting school or Musical school.

A issue nobody on here wants to accept is that about 20% of kids are the problem in any real Comprehensive school and should not be educated among the mainstream 80% .

I think the real problem is that posters believe everybody should receive the same standard of education, when in reality many children don't need it or warrant it.

The grammar schools themselves should do outreach to teach 11+ skills, focusing specifically on schools in deprived communities or those who historically send few children to grammars.

The Sutton trust said years ago, school need to do more to support all dc who could pass the test to prepare.
In my df day he had zero parental support and they didn't want him to go but his teacher could guide him and help him.

Ie cutting out the need for parents and helping all potential dc.

Re long words my dd definitely had an incredible vocabulary at that age and her reading age and spelling was in the late teens.

I totally agree about being well rounded and one dc maybe crap at English but be Einstein at maths and vice versa with Shakespeare.

But don't they go and help the other schools? Just shows not everyone with so called academic talent can get funneled off to grammar.

Over all we need more types of school at different stages not less.

Are you really comparing prep for the 11+ with OT and pastoral care?! Do you realise how ridiculous that sounds?!

@boys3 thanks for the report, it makes interesting reading. I just worked out that our nearest grammar, Tiffin, is 2 hours away by public transport so it's purely academic for us, but an interesting discussion none the less.

@SuzieNine With education being a devolved matter I'm not convinced that Northern Ireland should necessarily be included in this discussion which seems to be focused on the system in England. Something like 4.5% of DCs attend a grammar school in England; as compared with nearer 45% of DCs in Northern Ireland - proportionately near a ten-fold difference

However you'd be quite right that the majority of overall grammar school intake in England are not from an ethnic minority background - unless something dramatic has changed in the past five years. This research paper indicated 36%, so still well above the 26% figure for non grammars. Clearly, as you inferred there will be a significant distribution rather than a lot of clustering around the 36% mark. Grammars in Lincolnshire (11 in total ?) undoubtedly have a far lower figure than the grammars in London or Birmingham. I'd also imgine, though happy to be corrected, that most London, Brum will be super-selectives; probably not the case in Lincolnshire.

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01398/SN01398.pdf graph on page 8

The research paper was published before the last government agreed with the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities recommendation that the agregate term BAME was not appropriate and amongst other things masks the differences in outcomes between ethnic minority groups.

Unfortunately the CF interactive map though giving lots of data for each individual grammar school does not include ethnic minority background percentage. I've seen somewhere on CF an overall breakdown by different ethnic minority groups, but am struggling to find it again - suffice to say it showed significant differences between different groups.

https://comprehensivefuture.org.uk/interactive-map-of-grammar-schools/

@ThisPageIsBlank "And why should some of the class be held back from doing work which they are academically capable of doing because it would "upset others"?"

Because 11+ preparation is nothing to do with more academically advanced work. It's about being coached to jump through a very specific hoop, and would be a complete waste of time for anyone not going in for the test. And, in fact a waste of time for anyone who doesn't pass.

And why should some of the class be held back from doing work which they are academically capable of doing because it would "upset others"? Schools need to structure their lessons and teaching so that every child is stretched to their ability.

This is exactly why there should be far more variation in secondary provision specifically set up to suit children with different skills, focusing on art or sports or music or academics or practical skills so all children can excel at whatever their talents are.

Your own attempted counter-argument proves why this is necessary because otherwise ALL children are being failed as they are held back to near the average level of skills and development in every subject and forced to waste far too much time studying many which they will never be interested in or excel at.

The thing is that it would be totally inappropriate for any primary school to dedicate sufficient resource to an activity that only 20% of the pupils will benefit from, to the detriment of the rest, and where nothing equivalent exists that the other 80% can benefit from.

Really? So sports provision, music provision, drama provision, extra provision for those struggling with phonics or literacy or maths, the pastoral support services and therapy etc schools provide, OT support for those who need it... all totally unreasonable because only a small percentage of the school population requires this to thrive and develop their specific skills?

How ridiculous. It is exactly this type of attitude that exemplifies everything wrong with state education: trying to pretend all children are the same and all need identical provision to be able to develop their own specific skills and support their own particular areas of difficulty. This is why children are being failed. Equality of opportunity isn't achieved by pretending everyone is identical.

@boys3 tge assertion was that BAME pupils make up the majority of grammar school intakes. I was merely pointing out that this was highly unlikely considering that many grammar schools are in areas with low immigrant populations such as Lincolnshire and Northern Ireland (which has 45 of the remaining grammars alone).

@Jellycats4life "All I’m trying to say is it says more about British culture, lack of aspiration and lack of education focus than anything else."

No it doesn't. The people who emigrate looking for a better life for themselves and their family have already jumped through the first hoop in the grammar school selection process.