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11+ test: I think it's unfair and elitist

334 replies

ParentOfOne · 12/01/2025 13:06

We are helping our child prepare for the 11+ test, to apply for some selective and partially selective state schools (we won't be going private).

She is doing quite well, so, from a purely selfish perspective, I should be happy.
However, I can't help but think that the test is elitist and unfair

  • it favours children who are well-rounded, and who are so at 11ish. A child who develops well academically but later, and/or who is stronger in the verbal part than the non-verbal, or viceversa, won't do well
  • state schools do not typically prepare children for these kinds of tests, so the family situation becomes a huge differentiator: if your parents are more educated, and/or take you to the library, and/or can pay for tutoring, you'll have a huge advantage. Libraries have books to prepare for the test, but a teenager can go to the library alone, not a 10-year old.
  • some of the verbal part is honestly too hard for a child of this age. I am not sure it is appropriate to expect that 10-11 year olds know vocabulary such as cantankerous, recalcitrant, cogitations, etc
  • children who speak a Latin language (maybe also Greek? Not sure) have a huge advantage guessing the meaning of the more complex words. French-speaking, Spanish-speaking kids etc are much more likely to guess the meaning of initiate, abound etc even if they are not avid readers

My sense is that the brilliant child of parents who are uneducated, don't speak another language, don't take their children to the library etc stands almost no chance vs a less academic, less brilliant middle to upper middle class child who enjoys all the other advantages mentioned above.

There is of course the separate topic of whether it is even appropriate to separate kids by academic success, but my point is not about that, it is that the 11+ test is a very poor assessment because it doesn't take into account all the other factors.

Thoughts?

OP posts:
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dizzydizzydizzy · 12/01/2025 22:55

Definitely unfair . DC1 failed it. Went to a comprehensive, and despite having been deemed 'unsuitable for grammar school' got all 8s and 9s in their GCSEs, 4xA* in their A-Levels and a 1st in a science subject from a top uni. Achieved far more than their peers who went to grammar. Obviously it's all worked out fine but in this case the 11+ was a crap selection tool.

JoeDoe · 12/01/2025 22:54

ParentOfOne · 12/01/2025 13:06

We are helping our child prepare for the 11+ test, to apply for some selective and partially selective state schools (we won't be going private).

She is doing quite well, so, from a purely selfish perspective, I should be happy.
However, I can't help but think that the test is elitist and unfair

  • it favours children who are well-rounded, and who are so at 11ish. A child who develops well academically but later, and/or who is stronger in the verbal part than the non-verbal, or viceversa, won't do well
  • state schools do not typically prepare children for these kinds of tests, so the family situation becomes a huge differentiator: if your parents are more educated, and/or take you to the library, and/or can pay for tutoring, you'll have a huge advantage. Libraries have books to prepare for the test, but a teenager can go to the library alone, not a 10-year old.
  • some of the verbal part is honestly too hard for a child of this age. I am not sure it is appropriate to expect that 10-11 year olds know vocabulary such as cantankerous, recalcitrant, cogitations, etc
  • children who speak a Latin language (maybe also Greek? Not sure) have a huge advantage guessing the meaning of the more complex words. French-speaking, Spanish-speaking kids etc are much more likely to guess the meaning of initiate, abound etc even if they are not avid readers

My sense is that the brilliant child of parents who are uneducated, don't speak another language, don't take their children to the library etc stands almost no chance vs a less academic, less brilliant middle to upper middle class child who enjoys all the other advantages mentioned above.

There is of course the separate topic of whether it is even appropriate to separate kids by academic success, but my point is not about that, it is that the 11+ test is a very poor assessment because it doesn't take into account all the other factors.

Thoughts?

OP you may be right that 11+ is unfair and elitist but none of your arguments appears to support your conclusion.

  • it favours children who are well-rounded, and who are so at 11ish. A child who develops well academically but later, and/or who is stronger in the verbal part than the non-verbal, or vice versa, won't do well

People's academic abilities develop at different pace throughout education, from GCSEs to postgraduate studies, so this is an issue with all testing, not just 11+ (so if you are right all tests are unfair - a reductio). Moreover, most people have strengths in different areas, rather than being equally good in everything. Besides, a child can enter even in a super-selective school by acing one subject (english and verbal) and doing OK in the other (Maths/NVR). One may say that the difference in development can be starker at 10. But there is an official adjustment for summer born kids, who develop later. In any case, this point does not relate to your charge of elitism.

  • state schools do not typically prepare children for these kinds of tests, so the family situation becomes a huge differentiator: if your parents are more educated, and/or take you to the library, and/or can pay for tutoring, you'll have a huge advantage. Libraries have books to prepare for the test, but a teenager can go to the library alone, not a 10-year old.

This is the main argument, but as others have said, it is family/parental ambition that is the main driver behind academic success at 11+ and this cuts across middle class/working class divide. Hence so many grammar schools are full of kids of immigrants from disadvantaged backgrounds. Now, you may say that family ambition, be it by rich or poor/disadvantaged families, is itself an unfair factor. That's plausible, but again it is not elitist, in a class-based sense (understood as either income or culture).

  • some of the verbal part is honestly too hard for a child of this age. I am not sure it is appropriate to expect that 10-11 year olds know vocabulary such as cantankerous, recalcitrant, cogitations, etc

That's really irrelevant. In a super-selective grammar, the top (say 240) ranked kids in the exam will be admitted. The harder the test, the better you can differentiate numerically between the exam performances. If the test was easier (so that all kids would know the vocabulary) then you would get 400 kids with identical scores. The hardness of the test is not elitism, it is a way to distinguish between the thousands of applicants, hundreds of whom will be very strong and bright. Schools don't set out to test vocabulary that a 10 year-old is not supposed to know. In an exam with 300 applicants for 240 places, the fact that most kids don't know cantankerous would be irrelevant, because they would get a place.

  • children who speak a Latin language (maybe also Greek? Not sure) have a huge advantage guessing the meaning of the more complex words. French-speaking, Spanish-speaking kids etc are much more likely to guess the meaning of initiate, abound etc even if they are not avid readers

The studies of which I know, suggest that bilingualism confers an advantage in late teens and onwards, and it is a disadvantage early on (at primary education). But even if you are right, this again cuts across class divisions. Even if unfair, it's not elitist. But I struggle to see how language competence at 10 yo, enhanced by the fact of living in a bilingual household, is unfair. You contrast this to being an avid reader. Why is living in a household where one is encouraged to be an avid reader fair, but living in a household where one speaks many languages unfair. Unless someone assumes that only innate intelligence/ability should matter, and that any cultivation of skills by family background is unfair. But then this would suggest that we should test even earlier. Besides the assumption, made by the 'father' of the 11+ that intelligence is entirely innate, is flawed.

ParentOfOne · 12/01/2025 22:53

@ThisPageIsBlank This also demonstrates that you have not actually read my posts! I specifically set out in the first one ways it could be improved. 🤣🤦🏻‍♀️ Never mind, eh?

You didn't, in fact, set out much. You said you were open to re-testing at 13, but you didn't address what we should do with children who excel in one area but not in all, and who'd therefore never ace the whole 11+.

You also didn't explain why it would be worse to have a system based on sets, where children can be in different sets for different subjects, and can move up and down sets over time.

OP posts:
Dickensives · 12/01/2025 22:52

I genuinely do not understand parents that wish for their child to go to a selective school, but do not wish for there to be a selection process?!

It doesn’t make sense?

IThinkImAMathmoMum · 12/01/2025 22:51

@ThisPageIsBlank how would your system of more grammar schools help children like my DS with a "spiky" profile? He's a talented mathematician who is also dyslexic? At his comp he was able to be in the top set for maths and bottom set for English. Would he get to go to the grammar where his maths could be stretched but he would struggle to keep up with the level of English or put in a secondary modern where he wouldn't have any maths peers? I am so thankful we live in a comprehensive area.

Moonshine5 · 12/01/2025 22:51

KnickerlessParsons · 12/01/2025 22:19

It's no more elitist than competitive sport.
To do well in sport you have to have parents who can pay for your lessons, buy you the kit you need and spend hours and days of their lives driving you around to competitions and training sessions.

And when you start work, if you, say, want to be a project manager, you have to get qualifications. Not everyone can afford that.

Life is like that, always has been, always will be.

Agree
@KnickerlessParsons great username

ParentOfOne · 12/01/2025 22:49

@ThisPageIsBlank The current comprehensive system actually entrenches disadvantage and reduces social mobility, ironically, through the delusion that if we pretend everyone is the same they will somehow become so and then utopia will follow. But it hasn't, has it?

Not all state secondaries are the same. In fact, most are now academies - a system on which I have other reservations, as in my thread about Mossbourne, but that's a separate topic https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/5225872-mossbourne-academies-investigations-into-alleged-emotional-harm-and-abuse-why-are-needlessly-strict-academies-unaccountable?page=1

What I mean is that many state secondary school do NOT pretend everyone is the same.

Many divide children in sets, allowing children to be in different sets by subject, and allowing them to move up and down sets over time. That's the exact opposite of pretending everyone is the same, and it addresses many of the problems with the 11+, because it doesn't penalise the children who mature later, nor those who excel at one subject but not all.

Some state schools also admit by banding: they divide children into, say, 5 bands, if they have 100 places they allocate 20 places per band, and within each ability band they admit by distance. The rationale is that the school should benefit from a more diverse (in terms of ability) intake. Again, that doesn't mean pretending that everyone is the same!

OP posts:
JustGotToKeepOnKeepingOn · 12/01/2025 22:48

Grammar schools were originally designed to give bright children from any background the opportunity to go to an academically focused school.

Sadly, this has all changed... as questions in the 11+ include topics not taught on the NC, the only way to pass the exam is by having a tutor. I live in a grammar school area and it's awful watching parents scramble to get a tutor for their children from Y4.

The only way to make the 11+ fair would be to test the children on topics which have been covered on the NC. This would stop the need for tutors. But that won't happen as the preparation for 11+ is a money making industry!

ThisPageIsBlank · 12/01/2025 22:46

It indicates nothing of the sort!!! I can't help but notice that your answers to all the criticism raised about the 11+ has been a deafening silence!

This also demonstrates that you have not actually read my posts! I specifically set out in the first one ways it could be improved. 🤣🤦🏻‍♀️ Never mind, eh?

ParentOfOne · 12/01/2025 22:36

@Worried1305 I completely understand, but this is why the system continues to operate. Thousands of parents make the same choice as you because they care about their child more than about educational reform. It makes sense on an individual level, but it also means things won’t change.

I disagree.
I don't support the grammar system but I have had no role, neither direct nor indirect, in it.
What you say might apply to parents who may have lobbied for the creation of more grammars or the expansion of the existing ones, but that's not me.
I didn't move to a grammar area.
It just so happens that in our area:

  • there is one good, partially selective school
  • a few other good schools use a banding system based on an 11+ like test. The main criterion is distance, but it's calculated by band. The top band always has a greater maximum admission distance, so a higher score increases the chances of admission.
OP posts:
ThisPageIsBlank · 12/01/2025 22:34

ParentOfOne · 12/01/2025 22:30

@KnickerlessParsons
It's no more elitist than competitive sport.
[...]
Life is like that, always has been, always will be.

??? So what??? We should welcome a patently unfair and socially elitist system.... just because there is unfairness in other parts of life??? If anything, life is already so unfair that we should try to reduce the unfairness, not increase it!!!

@ThisPageIsBlank In my opinion it is an indicator that we need more grammars.

It indicates nothing of the sort!!! I can't help but notice that your answers to all the criticism raised about the 11+ has been a deafening silence!

  • What about the advantage granted to better off families who can afford tutoring?
  • What about the children who are not well-rounders and who excel in some subjects but not all?
  • What about the children who develop and mature later?
  • What makes you think that it is sensible to select children, up to the point of potentially determining a significant part of their future, at the age of 10-11? What makes you think that's fair, that it isn't too young an age?

I'm astonished anybody is defending the current system
I am astonished that is your interpretation. Criticising the 11+ does not mean defending the current system!!!

With respect, I've already addressed every single one of those points if you actually read my posts.

north51 · 12/01/2025 22:34

Rewindpresse · 12/01/2025 22:29

…And because tutoring is so prevalent that your bright children will be up against equally bright children who have had tutoring and so you’re not giving them a level playing field.

What I find so odd (not in a grammar area myself) is that it is a state system and yet the state primary schools don’t prepare their pupils. It’s like sitting GCSE Maths and English without ever doing mocks or exam practice. Why is that?

ThisPageIsBlank · 12/01/2025 22:34

KnickerlessParsons · 12/01/2025 22:19

It's no more elitist than competitive sport.
To do well in sport you have to have parents who can pay for your lessons, buy you the kit you need and spend hours and days of their lives driving you around to competitions and training sessions.

And when you start work, if you, say, want to be a project manager, you have to get qualifications. Not everyone can afford that.

Life is like that, always has been, always will be.

Agreed. You cannot eliminate disadvantage/ privilege from life. It is impossible. However, I'd suggest that the school system should be designed to mitigate this as much as possible by giving every child the opportunity to focus on and receive appropriate support/ environment/ facilities to develop their specific skills and talents. This is the best way to give every child the best life chances and also to treat them as individual human beings who have value. The current comprehensive system actually entrenches disadvantage and reduces social mobility, ironically, through the delusion that if we pretend everyone is the same they will somehow become so and then utopia will follow. But it hasn't, has it?

Formative years are critical to determining life outcomes for the majority. Children have no choices about these matters: they are the most vulnerable members of our society. And our future. Funding education properly so that appropriate schools with different specialisms are available to all children is absolutely essential if we wish to try to turn around this country's declining living standards, aside from it being a moral necessity.

The current system of one size fits all cannot and will not ever achieve this and it should be the top funding priority among all public services to overhaul the entire thing, scrap the current system entirely and start from scratch drawing on models from abroad which have been proven to have better outcomes (lower mental health issues in young people, lower youth unemployment, lower levels of NEETs, lower student debt, higher academic standards, better technical training, fewer skills shortages in the economy).

ParentOfOne · 12/01/2025 22:30

@KnickerlessParsons
It's no more elitist than competitive sport.
[...]
Life is like that, always has been, always will be.

??? So what??? We should welcome a patently unfair and socially elitist system.... just because there is unfairness in other parts of life??? If anything, life is already so unfair that we should try to reduce the unfairness, not increase it!!!

@ThisPageIsBlank In my opinion it is an indicator that we need more grammars.

It indicates nothing of the sort!!! I can't help but notice that your answers to all the criticism raised about the 11+ has been a deafening silence!

  • What about the advantage granted to better off families who can afford tutoring?
  • What about the children who are not well-rounders and who excel in some subjects but not all?
  • What about the children who develop and mature later?
  • What makes you think that it is sensible to select children, up to the point of potentially determining a significant part of their future, at the age of 10-11? What makes you think that's fair, that it isn't too young an age?

I'm astonished anybody is defending the current system
I am astonished that is your interpretation. Criticising the 11+ does not mean defending the current system!!!

OP posts:
north51 · 12/01/2025 22:30

Rivett · 12/01/2025 16:57

That can’t be prevented though. Grammar schools could be easily abolished.

There are actually alternatives to catchment areas eg lottery allocations which I believe has been tried in Brighton. A lot of people have bought houses in the catchment areas of good schools though so would be very annoyed with any govt that did this, so it isn’t a vote winner!

What is impossible is stopping parents helping their own children….. So even if grammars and private schools were abolished and everyone was obliged to send their children to the local comp, some children would get better outcomes because they were better supported at home and/or were privately tutored.

Rewindpresse · 12/01/2025 22:29

ParentOfOne · 12/01/2025 22:07

Because even the most brilliant child will benefit from some practice, considering the test is fairly different from what they do at school.

…And because tutoring is so prevalent that your bright children will be up against equally bright children who have had tutoring and so you’re not giving them a level playing field.

Worried1305 · 12/01/2025 22:28

ParentOfOne · 12/01/2025 22:06

No, I will not.

It's not a system I like, but choices in the area are limited.

Not that I need to justify myself to you, but the other, non-selective schools in the area are at a distance whereby it's a bit of a lottery: in some of the past years she'd have got in, in some others no.

So, no, I will not risk sending my child to a school which is likely to be a bad choice for her, just because I disapprove of the 11+ system.

If this means some smug forum users will want to criticise me for it, I couldn't care less.

I completely understand, but this is why the system continues to operate. Thousands of parents make the same choice as you because they care about their child more than about educational reform. It makes sense on an individual level, but it also means things won’t change.

north51 · 12/01/2025 22:22

Rivett · 12/01/2025 16:24

They are unfair I agree and are stuffed with kids whose parents place so much emphasis on education (often culturally) that they hot house their kids and expect them to work hours and hours per week.

The do nothing for social mobility and you can take an average to slightly above average child and tutor them for 2 years to help them pass. They would only be fair if no one was allowed to be tutored and if there was evidence of it they would be rejected (obvs that’s not going to happen)

It’s only really available for kids with enough money to pay for specialist tutoring and not innate ability. Takes it away from a naturally bright child form a deprived background.

Some would say it’s no different to GCSE tuition, but I’d disagree as tutoring a more privileged child for GCSE’s doesn’t prevent a deprived child gaining the same GCSE’s, though it would be much harder for them of course.

Edited

I don’t think this is right. I think GCSE grades are on a relative basis, so only so many students can get an A star/A/B etc, therefore over the whole cohort, the tutored children get better results at the expense of the non-tutored ones. The whole education system is a ranking system.

And for those who don’t like the 11+, do you realise there is effectively a 16+?

ALL 6th forms (not just grammar schools) are allowed to select their pupils and can use various criteria, including GCSEs, their own internal exams (including NVR if they want) and interviews. Not surprisingly the most academically successful state schools (in terms of A level results and Russell group/Oxbridge) have the most stringent selection criteria into their 6th forms.

A further point to consider re 11+ is that it is designed to select pupils from the most engaged and academically focussed families, not the brightest children per se. They want children whose families will be supportive of the academic system of the school.

KnickerlessParsons · 12/01/2025 22:19

It's no more elitist than competitive sport.
To do well in sport you have to have parents who can pay for your lessons, buy you the kit you need and spend hours and days of their lives driving you around to competitions and training sessions.

And when you start work, if you, say, want to be a project manager, you have to get qualifications. Not everyone can afford that.

Life is like that, always has been, always will be.

ThisPageIsBlank · 12/01/2025 22:08

ParentOfOne · 12/01/2025 21:58

@ThisPageIsBlank You've misunderstood my post. It wasn't a unicorn school". It was a totally failure of a school.

I am truly sorry for your experience. It is terrible. But it is also, forgive me, completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. The fact that there were terrible schools doesn't mean we need more grammars, and doesn't address, let alone negate, all the problems with the 11+ that I and others have raised.

In my opinion it is an indicator that we need more grammars. And also an indicator that the other children at that school and many like it were also being failed as a result of the comprehensive system which has never and will never enable even a majority of students to reach their actual potential, for all of the reasons I've stated. We need schools for academic children that all such children can access regardless of the area they live or demographic background. We also need, in all areas, choices of schools available to develop the specific talents of other children in the arts, sports, technical and practical skills with proper routes into careers, so that all children have a chance to thrive no matter what their area of skill. And to provide appropriate schools for children with SEN, which is an absolute joke at the moment.

I'm astonished anybody is defending the current system and - ironically - anybody doing so must only have experienced it in a very nice area yet is bemoaning how "unfair" it would be to implement a system that didn't disadvantage children in poorer areas who have to endure such disruptive and dysfunctional environments and have people claim it constitutes "education", whose parents cannot move to a nice catchment area for a "good" comp or afford extracurricular activities to foster their talents in art or music or sport or electronics or carpentry or anything else, that their school will entirely neglect to develop in any meaningful way.

Printedword · 12/01/2025 22:08

The 11 plus is definitely an outdated form of testing. Also, I'm over 60 and grew up in a place where comprehensive schools started in 1974 and all grammar schools ceased at that time.

It's more than time they didn't exist especially if other local schools are seen as poor relations or suffer because of the grammar system

ParentOfOne · 12/01/2025 22:07

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Because even the most brilliant child will benefit from some practice, considering the test is fairly different from what they do at school.

OP posts:
AllProperTeaIsTheft · 12/01/2025 22:07

Tiredalwaystired · 12/01/2025 22:03

No I didn’t misunderstand - you mentioned that the system was at fault. What it shows (from your awful experience - I’m sorry) is that it’s not necessary a systemic issue as there are good and poor schools out there.

There are plenty of systemic issues. Some schools do well in spite of the systemic issues. Many do not. There are problems which are common to pretty much all state schools (in England at least).

ParentOfOne · 12/01/2025 22:06

Worried1305 · 12/01/2025 22:01

I assume you will be withdrawing your child from the process then OP?

No, I will not.

It's not a system I like, but choices in the area are limited.

Not that I need to justify myself to you, but the other, non-selective schools in the area are at a distance whereby it's a bit of a lottery: in some of the past years she'd have got in, in some others no.

So, no, I will not risk sending my child to a school which is likely to be a bad choice for her, just because I disapprove of the 11+ system.

If this means some smug forum users will want to criticise me for it, I couldn't care less.

OP posts:
Tiredalwaystired · 12/01/2025 22:03

ThisPageIsBlank · 12/01/2025 21:56

These unicorn schools definitely do exist. My kids go to one. Loads of GCSE options, non selective comprehensive, thriving arts and sports communities, masses of extra curricular options, performs above national average on progress 8.

You've misunderstood my post. It wasn't a unicorn school". It was a totally failure of a school. Teachers being locked in cupboards, thrown through windows, children regularly physically assaulted, some of the buildings burned down by students, drugs rife. Very little learning went on at all. It was closed down entirely some years after I left, the building then left to become derelict.

I passed the exams by reading the textbooks when I wasn't at school, and me and a handful of other academic children who taught ourselves saved them from having the worst grades in the entire country that year so that they came instead in second to last place.

No I didn’t misunderstand - you mentioned that the system was at fault. What it shows (from your awful experience - I’m sorry) is that it’s not necessary a systemic issue as there are good and poor schools out there.