Secondary School Appeal - In Year Transfer - Please Help!

Elfin80 · 2025-01-07T11:09:55+00:00

This is very hard to write in a concise way but I will try my best to get to the point. My children have been in private education since nursery and are currently Year 5 and Year 9. I found out approximately 8 weeks ago my husband (whom I am now separated from) has not been paying the fees. He has intercepted all communication from the school and it has got to the point where the children were told they could not return to school for the start of term on Monday 6th Janaury. I immediately applied for school places and my son has got into my local primary school but there are no places at any of the 3 local secondary schools, there is only possibility of a place at a school 6 miles away. You can imagine how traumatic this has been for my children, having to explain they are simply not allowed to go back into their school or see their friends and have to move school all in one go was horrific. I am still trying to find my way around the financial situation that has led us here and it has been a truly awful time at home for the past few weeks. I have an appeal on Monday for a secondary school I want my daughter to attend, she has played sport there and knows a number of students and it is situated less than 1/2 mile from my house. The curriculum matches well to her previous school and she is obviously entering the most critical years of her education needing to select options for her GCSE subjects. The admissions department have only just got the paperwork to me regarding the appeal, which as I say is on Monday. I don't feel I wrote a very comprehensive argument in my initial appeal application as I was just in such a rush to get it submitted. My daughter is very anxious and upset about the situation, she isn't sleeping and I am beside myself with what is going to happen. I believe she is in a very vulnerable position, she is as such out of education as it stands. I know she is currently number 1 on the waiting list for the school. I would be just so grateful for any advice how I can try and formulate a realistic argument to voice at the appeal to try and strengthen my case as to why she should be given a place. I am so worried about her mental health she is a very quiet, reserved girl and I just think this is going to impact her so much.

springcleaned · 12/01/2025 10:44

Elfin80 · 12/01/2025 10:22

I feel quite confident that I have a good argument for my daughter’s needs to attend the school for the second stage.
In the school report their reason for prejudice is:

The high/middle ability maths groups are full and so admitting her to one of these would be detrimental to those pupils and admitting her to lower ability would be detrimental to those pupils needing more teacher intervention.
The higher/middle ability science groups are full with 32 pupils and no more desks can be put in classrooms, again if she were put in lower ability it would be detrimental to those pupils needing more teacher intervention.
The pupils have been streamed into language choice on entry and there is no room for her in the French stream so she would have to do German - my daughter has studied German previously so this does help with this argument.

Am I supposed to argue against these points in my statement or oppose them with questioning? How do I argue they can accommodate her or is that something I shouldn’t enter into and just concentrate on my regiment for why she needs to be in that school. They have cited health and safety reasons as the main other factor, saying communal space is overcrowded etc. i am conscious of not falling into ‘just one more pupil’ won’t make a difference but it’s hard to know what to say? My appeal is tomorrow and am I am just so worried I am not doing my daughter justice, she has been so let down, I just want to make sure I do everything I can for her.

You don't need to argue against those facts. As mentioned up-thread, the panel will use their judgement to decide whether your case is stronger than the school's. It is simply a balancing act.

Original poster

Elfin80 · 12/01/2025 10:22

I feel quite confident that I have a good argument for my daughter’s needs to attend the school for the second stage.
In the school report their reason for prejudice is:

The high/middle ability maths groups are full and so admitting her to one of these would be detrimental to those pupils and admitting her to lower ability would be detrimental to those pupils needing more teacher intervention.
The higher/middle ability science groups are full with 32 pupils and no more desks can be put in classrooms, again if she were put in lower ability it would be detrimental to those pupils needing more teacher intervention.
The pupils have been streamed into language choice on entry and there is no room for her in the French stream so she would have to do German - my daughter has studied German previously so this does help with this argument.

Am I supposed to argue against these points in my statement or oppose them with questioning? How do I argue they can accommodate her or is that something I shouldn’t enter into and just concentrate on my regiment for why she needs to be in that school. They have cited health and safety reasons as the main other factor, saying communal space is overcrowded etc. i am conscious of not falling into ‘just one more pupil’ won’t make a difference but it’s hard to know what to say? My appeal is tomorrow and am I am just so worried I am not doing my daughter justice, she has been so let down, I just want to make sure I do everything I can for her.

OP posts:

Original poster

Elfin80 · 11/01/2025 22:32

Lougle · 11/01/2025 22:23

@Elfin80 you could ask if the school has been over PAN in any other year group in the last 5 years and how they dealt with it. You could also ask if they have been over PAN in her proposed year group in the last 5 years and how they dealt with it.

You could ask how often they assess pupils for setting in her year group. You absolutely should point out that being in the German stream isn't a problem for her (I wouldn't add that she's 'not big on languages', just say that she has learned both in the past).

Focus on why this school meets her needs. She doesn't have a right to a 'local' school but I would absolutely make the point strongly about the stability of her sport and the fact that this is the state school she is familiar with.

I would also make it really clear that this is a traumatic departure from the private school and that you, and she, had no idea that this was all happening until your child was told that she couldn't return.

FWIW, I think you have a strong case for admission. All schools are obliged to state a case for refusal to admit. They have no choice. They could desperately want to take her but have to say that they would be gravely inconvenienced if they took another child. They just have to.

Thank you @Lougle that’s all really helpful I think I just have to remember the points you’ve raised and keep them a strong focus of my argument, i was just unsure as to how far to go with my questions to try and counter their statement in the first stage. But like you say I will question previous years PAN etc and ask questions on the streaming process.
I really hope so, I feel like my daughter is suffering so much but has been heroic in how she’s dealt with it. If I can get her into this school I just feel she’s getting a small piece of stability back.

OP posts:

Lougle · 11/01/2025 22:23

@Elfin80 you could ask if the school has been over PAN in any other year group in the last 5 years and how they dealt with it. You could also ask if they have been over PAN in her proposed year group in the last 5 years and how they dealt with it.

You could ask how often they assess pupils for setting in her year group. You absolutely should point out that being in the German stream isn't a problem for her (I wouldn't add that she's 'not big on languages', just say that she has learned both in the past).

Focus on why this school meets her needs. She doesn't have a right to a 'local' school but I would absolutely make the point strongly about the stability of her sport and the fact that this is the state school she is familiar with.

I would also make it really clear that this is a traumatic departure from the private school and that you, and she, had no idea that this was all happening until your child was told that she couldn't return.

FWIW, I think you have a strong case for admission. All schools are obliged to state a case for refusal to admit. They have no choice. They could desperately want to take her but have to say that they would be gravely inconvenienced if they took another child. They just have to.

Original poster

Elfin80 · 11/01/2025 22:16

I am really unsure as to what to ask the school when they have put their case forward - as to try and counter their prejudice argument.
Should I question whether they have previously gone over numbers?
The school is under capacity but at PAN for her age group - is this at all relevant?
Am I supposed to counter the things they argue against her admission with my questions or should this be kept to the second stage when I give my statement?
Sorry for all the questions, I just want to make sure I give her the best chance possible.

OP posts:

Original poster

Elfin80 · 11/01/2025 15:31

minipie · 11/01/2025 15:19

Yes you are correct on how it goes. There is an introduction by the panel, then the school’s case (you ask them questions) then your case (they can ask you questions). The panel should also ask questions, both of the school and you.

If multiple people are appealing for the same school then you may find that the hearing is split in two - in the first part all the appellants join in together, the school states its case about being full, and all the appellants can raise their questions. This saves on repetition. Then the second part is private (just you, the school and the panel) and is just for your case about your child.

Of your bullet points, 2 and 3 are the strongest, 1 is not really, so focus on 2 and 3. No harm in mentioning 1 but don’t major on it iyswim.

Do you know whether her GCSE options and sports would be available at other schools in the area? So, they are not available at the offered school, they are available at the appeal school, but what about other (perhaps less sought after) schools?

Thank you @minipie this is an in year appeal for Year 9 for my daughter who has been forced to leave her current (independent) school as her place has been withdrawn due to financial reasons. As per my original post this happened unexpectedly and very quickly. I haven't actually been offered a place for her from any school as yet, I applied to the 2 closest schools both of which are full and have appealed the decision at my preferred school.
I have asked the School Admissions for a list of schools with places and none of them are 'local' to us. I have looked at some of the schools and they do not offer some subjects she intended to take, and also continue to A-Level, and also with the sport, the 2 next closest schools to us that potentially could have a space do not offer any sports coaching/practices in the sports she plays at county level.
I feel she is extremely vulnerable having been in her previous school since she was 2, and coping with the changing circumstances at home, she is a very quiet, introverted girl. At the moment she is so anxious, not sleeping or eating properly, I am completely beside myself. She does have some friendships already established from the preferred school.
I live 500m from the preferred school and it would have been the one we applied to for Year 7, she is number 1 on the waiting list from her criteria.

OP posts:

minipie · 11/01/2025 15:19

Yes you are correct on how it goes. There is an introduction by the panel, then the school’s case (you ask them questions) then your case (they can ask you questions). The panel should also ask questions, both of the school and you.

If multiple people are appealing for the same school then you may find that the hearing is split in two - in the first part all the appellants join in together, the school states its case about being full, and all the appellants can raise their questions. This saves on repetition. Then the second part is private (just you, the school and the panel) and is just for your case about your child.

Of your bullet points, 2 and 3 are the strongest, 1 is not really, so focus on 2 and 3. No harm in mentioning 1 but don’t major on it iyswim.

Do you know whether her GCSE options and sports would be available at other schools in the area? So, they are not available at the offered school, they are available at the appeal school, but what about other (perhaps less sought after) schools?

Original poster

Elfin80 · 11/01/2025 15:09

Thank you everyone for all your advice and help, I have tried to get my head around the appeal process and try and write a clear argument.
Please can you confirm I have got this right, in the first stage the school will present their argument, i.e. the report they have sent me. I will then get chance to ask questions of their argument of prejudice?
The second stage is where I present the case for my daughter, I have included:

The impact the change of school is going to have on my daughter is significant, she is being forcibly removed from her current school through no fault of her own. There has been significant emotional upheaval at home due to parents separation and financial situation.
The preferred school will enable her to continue her GCSE options and is the best curriculum match, there are certain subjects not available at the alternative school. It is a very significant point of her education.
The extra curricular activities at school will enable her to carry on her county level sports, these sports are not offered at some of the other schools and all practices have to be attended before or after school which would not be accessible for her due to distance from home.

Having read, probably not always the best idea I know, lots of information on here about other people's experience, I just feel everything is going to boil down to the fact that there are no spaces and they are not over numbers in any other year. Sorry! I feel totally overwhelmed and underprepared.

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minipie · 07/01/2025 21:35

The key argument for you is going to be what does this school offer that your daughter needs, that other schools do not. So, if this is the only school where she could do her GCSE choices (albeit maybe not in the “right” set, at least to start) then say that clearly. Likewise, the sports coaching although if all the schools offer her sports then wanting a particular teacher may carry less weight.

The other angle is to question the school’s case on “full”. Don’t go in hard but worth probing a little unless you think the appeal panel have asked everything possible already. How many kids in the other years? If it’s more than in y9, why can’t they take another in y9?

LadyLapsang · 07/01/2025 21:15

I am sorry your DH has placed your children in this situation.

When you mention there is a possibility of a place 6 miles away, have you been offered a place or has the LA highlighted they think there may be places available in Yr. 9 which you haven’t pursued?

How far was your daughter’s home to school journey in her previous school?

In what way do you feel the academic curriculum of the nearby school offers better continuity with her previous school, when compared to the school 6 miles away?

Had she already chosen her GCSE options in the previous school and if so do you have a paper trail?

springcleaned · 07/01/2025 19:09

"If the format of the appeal is that you get to ask questions"

Confirming there will be the opportunity to ask questions at the appeal. It is a fundamental part of the process.

TattyPhoenix · 07/01/2025 18:59

I don't have anything to add on the appeal side but I wanted to give my sympathies. I was wondering whether their own schools would allow them back just to say a proper goodbye? Such a difficult thing <flowers>

lanthanum · 07/01/2025 18:02

(It is possible that the objections are more a matter of "managing expectations" - with the case of the child I put into set 2 because set 1 was full, it was a lot easier to explain to the parents because I could start with "you obviously know that we're quite full in this year group, as you had to appeal to get a place...")

lanthanum · 07/01/2025 18:00

I would make clear that she's happy to do either French or German, and that knocks the "no room in the French classes" out of the equation. The fact that they mentioned that as a specific reason perhaps suggests that there IS room in the German classes!

If the format of the appeal is that you get to ask questions, I do think it is worth raising the question in my last paragraph. (That is, unless they are already a few above PAN, in which case there would have to be several leave before they take her from the waiting list, and so there would likely be spaces in more suitable sets.)

Original poster

Elfin80 · 07/01/2025 17:44

lanthanum · 07/01/2025 15:44

Most schools review setting at regular intervals (and it would be a rare school that doesn't make any changes going into year 10). I worked in a school where we got quite a few coming in on in-year appeals. We could usually fit them into the right set; on one occasion we already had 36 in the top set, and the parents were understanding about why we'd put their child in set 2, especially as she was here temporarily from another country, so there was curriculum mismatch wherever we put her. On another, we had a sudden influx of about 6 top set kids due to an employer relocating a department - that time we had to redo the setting in the second week in September, and construct a letter explaining very carefully that the children moving sets had not got worse - we were just having to draw the set boundaries in different places.
You could perhaps counter the "no room in the top sets" with the suggestion that it would be no worse to be in a lower set in this school until September than in a different school altogether. With any luck, they review setting each term - is there any information about that anywhere?
Languages can be a problem - the school mentioned above had half the year doing French and half doing German - they'd learned over the years that they should fill the German classes fuller than the French ones in year 7, because incomers were more likely to be doing French. If they did take her, how would you feel about her doing another language for a couple of terms, and keeping her French up outside school?

Of course, if they are not above PAN at the moment, and one pupil leaves, and she is still top of the waiting list, then they will at that point be obliged to give her a place - even if the pupil who leaves is in the bottom set for everything and not doing French. You could ask the question of how they would manage that situation, and why they could not do the same in this situation.

Thank you, no they don't mention anything about the intervals they review set structure, however like you say I'd be surprised if it wasn't done at least before they start Year 10. I would have no problem her being put in a lower set due to this.
Yes this school has already split the year group into either French or German, and they have said there would be no capacity to go into the French stream. My daughter has actually studied both French and German so it isn't a problem, she isn't big on languages, so really wouldn't mind if she had to go into German instead of French, and has a background in both.
I feel like both of these problems are issues that would have to be dealt with with any new admission through the year, not simply an issue of going over number, as a child of any ability could be given a place.

OP posts:

lanthanum · 07/01/2025 15:44

Most schools review setting at regular intervals (and it would be a rare school that doesn't make any changes going into year 10). I worked in a school where we got quite a few coming in on in-year appeals. We could usually fit them into the right set; on one occasion we already had 36 in the top set, and the parents were understanding about why we'd put their child in set 2, especially as she was here temporarily from another country, so there was curriculum mismatch wherever we put her. On another, we had a sudden influx of about 6 top set kids due to an employer relocating a department - that time we had to redo the setting in the second week in September, and construct a letter explaining very carefully that the children moving sets had not got worse - we were just having to draw the set boundaries in different places.
You could perhaps counter the "no room in the top sets" with the suggestion that it would be no worse to be in a lower set in this school until September than in a different school altogether. With any luck, they review setting each term - is there any information about that anywhere?
Languages can be a problem - the school mentioned above had half the year doing French and half doing German - they'd learned over the years that they should fill the German classes fuller than the French ones in year 7, because incomers were more likely to be doing French. If they did take her, how would you feel about her doing another language for a couple of terms, and keeping her French up outside school?

Of course, if they are not above PAN at the moment, and one pupil leaves, and she is still top of the waiting list, then they will at that point be obliged to give her a place - even if the pupil who leaves is in the bottom set for everything and not doing French. You could ask the question of how they would manage that situation, and why they could not do the same in this situation.

Ticketytutu · 07/01/2025 14:06

Definitely give as much information and evidence as to why this school will benefit your daughter. Appeals are so stressful . We went through this many years ago with our daughter and the mistake that we made was that we emphasised too much as to why the other school wasn’t suitable over why the school we were appealing for was suitable! We did win eventually but it involved the ombudsman and it was a nightmare few months!!

Coffeebreakneeds · 07/01/2025 13:58

Have you contacted the private school to explain the situation and see if there are any bursaries available which might mean she can stay, even if it's just until a state school place becomes available? I would definitely have a conversation with them. You and your children are in a situation through no fault of your own so they might be more sympathetic than you think.

Original poster

Elfin80 · 07/01/2025 13:56

Thank you all so much, its all so helpful, and giving me the strength to write my case. We have so much to get through at the moment everything just seems so daunting!
I am just going to concentrate on why my daughter needs to attend that school rather than alternatives and the impact it would have on her, hopefully that's the right course.

OP posts:

springcleaned · 07/01/2025 13:52

titchy · 07/01/2025 13:26

Effectively they're saying they could take her if she was low ability - schools can't select in ability!

It is common practice for schools to fill their top groups up to capacity and have fewer children in lower ability groups so they get more attention. If this child were headed for the lower ability groups then the school could still quite legitimately argue that the education of the children in those classes would be impacted.

springcleaned · 07/01/2025 13:48

Elfin80 · 07/01/2025 12:58

Thank you all for your posts, its just so helpful to get advice and talk it through.
I completely understand the points the school have presented and know being over numbers, ultimately will always been seen as a negative against my appeal.
That's my worry really, that I can't create a strong enough case to overcome these points, whereas I know my daughter's need is great and this is a huge impact on her life.
Should I be trying to counter the points they make or is it better to concentrate on why my daughter should be in that school? eg. subjects, GCSE options, emotional wellbeing.

"being over numbers, ultimately will always been seen as a negative against my appeal."

It is literally the only reason why you need to appeal. If they weren't over-PAN then your child would have an offer by now.

The school's case will always describe the impact of going over PAN. That is par for the course in any appeal.

springcleaned · 07/01/2025 13:42

titchy · 07/01/2025 13:26

Effectively they're saying they could take her if she was low ability - schools can't select in ability!

If that's their only argument, then yes. But presumably there is more to the case than that. Like appellants, schools tend to have multiple arguments, some stronger than others, and they are cumulative.

We know very little about the school. The implication of the one argument we've heard is that they have started key stage 4 in year 9 (if it were my school the GCSE options aren't yet chosen). Nevertheless, going over PAN would be an issue in our school for other reasons not mentioned here.

titchy · 07/01/2025 13:26

Effectively they're saying they could take her if she was low ability - schools can't select in ability!

titchy · 07/01/2025 13:25

I don’t believe that a school can cite that there’s no room in a particular ability for a student

I'd agree that sounds very weak - they could put her in one of the low ability groups to start, then move her at the beginning of year 10. No school would ever fix ability groups in year 9 without reviewing annually at least and moving kids up and down as needed.

LocationChange · 07/01/2025 13:18

springcleaned · 07/01/2025 12:21

"The report I have received through from the school seems very damning about them simply not being able to take her. They have cited no availability in middle or higher maths groups or no availability for her to be in the French stream in the school."

If those groups are full, adding another child will be to the detriment of others. The panel will weigh up your case against theirs.

You can't expect them to move a child out of those classes to accommodate yours - if your appeal is granted they will be pushed over numbers. That is why you need to present a strong case.

Edited

I don’t believe that a school can cite that there’s no room in a particular ability for a student. After all, if one of their current students needed to move groups owing to progress then they would have to provide for them. They can only object on the grounds of overall numbers. All secondary schools will say that because all their forms have 30 students then they are full. However, no matter what the school’s policy, this is only a statutory requirement for Key Stage 1. At the end of the day, the Appeal is about whether the prejudice to the child outweighs the prejudice to the school.