Thoughts on large (280) vs smaller (130) state secondaries?

We have 120 per year and no sixth form. It has pros and cons. On the plus side its not too overwhelming, especially if you are coming from a small junior school, and the teachers know everyone's name. The downside for us is really about music - while the music department is fantastic and they have a great jazz band, there's no way they could maintain an orchestra at all - they struggle to have a wind group. And the choir is tiny and doesn't have a single boy in it. The same is true for sports - it's hard to put out full teams when you have such a small cohort, although all the schools they compete against are similar so it sort of evens out.

By contrast the sixth form college has 2,500 in just two years so comes as something of a shock to all of them!

DD went to a secondary school where she thought that she wouldn't know anyone. However, due to local clubs (Brownies, dance classes, that sort of thing) she found that she did know other girls.

I suppose that it's sort of the opposite of what some have said above: rather than wait until Big School and the extra-curricular clubs there, get to know like-minded folk beforehand.

I wouldn't make the size of the school a factor in choosing which one. The feel for the school, the pastoral care, the academic results, the progress 8, GCSE streaming, the facilities, extra curricular activities and subject choice at GCSE are all more important. Large schools tend to group the classes to give students a chance to get to know a number of pupils better and will stream for GCSEs, so the kids only ever mix with part of the intake in lesson terms.

Mine went to the smaller secondary. It's muddied a bit by the fact that their primary was tiny with no clearly defined "destination" kids moved onto - they spread around about 4 local schools, but the bigger schools were nearer, and academically slightly better - but have issues with bullying that aren't dealt with, and I just preferred the smaller, more nurturing vibe of the smaller school and the way the staff interacted with kids.

I dont think size will be the biggest factor for whether a shy chikd makes friends. I think how it's structured will be more important.

Eg my sons small school did vertical tutor which meant there was only a few people in your year group in your tutor group. The idea was that year 11 would be less scary and adopt 'thier year 7s'. The reality was they didn't mix.

But he was in very consistent classes from the October half term and that did let friendships flourish. But that could be the same in a big school.

What I would say was at primary we found boys and girls mixed more, but at secondary it was much more divided, at least for the first few years So your 130 is might be nearer 60 if that pattern follows.

The question is on the social aspect for a relatively shy child.
It's probably impossible to predict because year-groups can have a different vibe, even within the same school. (For example, there was outcry in DS's year when they failed to send anyone to Oxbridge. All cohorts for years and years either side did, but for some reason DS's year didn't. They were the awkward / non-conformist squad.).

What are most of her current Junior school friends intending?

My ds is in y7 of a 300 intake school but it’s split down the middle timetable wise so there’s a pool of 150 kids he has classes with and he never comes the other 150 in classes and won’t do at all for the next five years even for GCSE options. So in terms of “friends options” it might as well be half the size.

he came from a single form intake primary, I thought it would be a massive shock but he’s settled pretty well.

What I will say is with such a massive school they have a very hardline approach to rules especially wrt to uniform and homework. With so many kids I imagine there just isn’t any scope for flexibility which you might get in a smaller school

If she is bright and a promising 11+ candidate, the GCSE option questions are even more important.

The ‘grammar stream’ sounds like normal top sets / top stream.

Unless they give them some extra privileges which set them apart from the rest of the school which might not go down well.

I would check the range of subjects offered at GCSE. Is there a choice of MFL, can they do more than one? can they do triple science, what arts GCSEs do the offer ( dance? Music? Drama?).

Children’s interests and aptitude evolves and it would be good to have opportunities open.

The same with the extra curricular offer.

Including music lessons.

I would avoid the bigger school. They become hugely impersonal and don’t tend to push students much.

It is pretty much the luck of the draw socially. In either scenario it simply depends who is in the intake and whether they click with your child. And it all depends how the large school manages their size - one of my DDs went to a very big secondary that was divided vertically into 4 "houses", each of which functioned as a smaller school - had their own assemblies etc. It seemed to work well - she was bored to tears by the work, but I think that would have been the same anywhere.

Another went to a very small rural secondary with a farming emphasis - she did brilliantly as they catered for individuals - her GSCE music class consisted of individual tuition - no one else had opted for the subject so she basically had private tuition for free. But socially it was hard - there was some serious bitchery going on. On the surface it looked like a small caring school, but that intake of girls was a difficult one.

Another went to a private school where they did well, but came away with the idea that they were mediocre because there were some seriously academically gifted all-rounders that gave her that impression.

All 3 went to the local sixth form college afterwards, which they loved.

The only way forward is to visit and to ask all the detailed questions about pastoral care in particular; and to quiz anyone you know with children there.

The conclusion I came to though was that you do not really know a school till you have a child there.

A bigger school has worked well for my more socially anxious DD. There's a good range of extra curricular clubs and that is where she found most of her friends, rather than in lessons. Are there good clubs at the smaller school? It's pure chance if you end up in a lesson with people you share common interests with. Much more likely to find your group if there's some niche clubs going on.

I also wouldn't necessarily worry about sets changing constantly and losing friendships that way. Has the school said how often movement happens? At ours it's just at the end of a school year and it's really minimal movement.

Yes for sure on your last point.

I mean I agree with most here that the bigger school is probably a better choice overall.

I am a bit dubious about the figures as they are rather old. But 320 state schools in 2012 had more than 1500 pupils - and there were 3,452 secondaries in England in 2022. Not sure if that includes state schools or not. But that's where I got my 10% from.

I would check with the school whether they teach in sets from Y7 or whether at least some subjects are mixed ability so they are with their form group for most/all of the day. I think that would have the biggest influence on a stable friendship group.

Also a bigger school might have a greater range or more niche clubs for your child to meet her tribe.

My son went to a school with 100 in his year and the teachers, even the head, knew them well by year 11. It was very family atmosphere and he had a very positive time.

Not enough children played an instrument to have a decent band/orchestra, and some sports teams struggled to get enough players, and gcse options were limited by staff/class sizes. It also meant there wasnt a big faculty team to pick up slack if a teacher was ill, but some of the staff issues like moderation and support were mitigated by being in a trust.

but the flipside was you tended to get picked if you wanted to do something so you got lots of opportunities.

I actually think behaviour has more impact than size on whether a child is overwhelmed. A small chaotic school will be worse than a large calm one and vice versa. Another factor us were tge facilities designed for that number or are they squeezed in.

We have a local smaller school and bigger school and although ds would have been better suited to a smaller school we went for the big one as the options at GCSE and A-level were much, much greater. He didn't find his tribe all through and I think that was partly down to being such a large school and always having different kids in his classes, he found it difficult to have the time to get to know anyone - so bigger schools aren't always better in that way. Academically though it was the much better option.

With knowingva range of pupils...
DDs school has 210 (yr9) and 240(yr7). They had a small party at Halloween... the friends invited were Yr7-Yr10. Mainly friends made at extracurricular clubs, not in lessons.

I think both those schools are big enough that you just go with the one you and your child likes better. Even the small one has four large classes per year, which is not unusual (here at least).

I think bigger is better if your child struggles to get to know people. 130 isn't really small enough to work in the sense of everyone knowing everyone, even with no sixth form, as there will still be hundreds of pupils in the school as a whole. (Not sure this is really ever a thing, aside from very small/boarding/selective schools)

Bigger means more opportunities for the more niche things. I'd think of 130 per year as being medium sized which is fine if your DC gets on with pretty much anyone.

I'm sure they won't be changing classes all the time because the school will be aware of the fact that pupils need to spend time together to get to know each other.

Goodness, you forget how big some schools are when you live in NI. My son goes to a local state high school and the total school population is 180! Intake of around 30 per year and no sixth form but for my DS (who can be shy) having the teachers know every kid by name and a smaller school has meant a lot more meaningful contact with staff, and making a good fist of making friends with the small selection he has. Bullying is caught quickly, very tough on mobile phone usage because they can easily police it etc… it was definitely the best option for him.