Detentions as a punishment

I think the figures would be higher. Some kids continue to sixth form and still bum around, but they’re not NEET. Similarly, some will get jobs or apprenticeships and do okay, despite having messed around throughout school. I think GCSE results are a fairly broad representation of whether the children in that particular school are engaged or not (allowing for SEN).

My DS works in a school where discipline is very lax. He tells me that large number of the children spend their lessons vaping in the toilets and teachers would prefer that than having them in their lessons causing disruption. Less than 25% of children pass their maths and English GCSE.

I agree the best we can do for this 25 percent is give them an education even if its by a few detentions and pep talks.

It is mostly the result of ideological decisions that have prioritised other aspects of the state. And curriculum decisions that never aimed to provide education matched to.the needs of all learners (just look at the low funding for vocational options - that was fine when we could import workers from lower wage EU countries of course).

And as our economy is relatively good at job creation, people in professional jobs (like teaching, educational psychology etc) where real wages have fallen and/or conditions have worsened have changed job or taken early retirement.

Surely the ideological aspect can't be too unfamiliar to a Russian?!

Additionally, we have an over developed financial sector and it has been very expensive to pay for the financial crisis. It was only 16 uears ago. That's nothing considering the billions of debt it added.

The economic inactivity is at least in part because the NHS was already in a poor state when Covid hit it.

Google "austerity, UK" and you will find relevant commentary.

I didn’t quite understand. Your children weren’t afraid to push boundaries, but they chose not to. Is that correct? Why do you think they weren’t afraid? And why did they agree to go to their room?

Oh, they pushed boundaries and I told them very clearly not to it again. My eldest repeatedly pushed boundaries, I think he needed constant reassurance that they were there for him to feel safe.
My DC knew if they didn't come home by a certain time I'd be worried they wouldn't be allowed to go out the next time, or asked to come home earlier. They never pushed it with that one though. When they were little if they took all of the biscuits and ate them in one sitting I wouldn't buy more for quite a while. I guess some one see that as a punishment, but I wasn't doing it as a punishment, more that I don't want them scoffing biscuits. They'd agree to go to their room because they trusted me to kept them safe, and they probably knew their own behaviour wasn't great. There was one occasion when DS refused to go to his room so I picked up a huge 13yo and carried him there. I told him that when I tell him to go to his room, he goes to his room. I'm not sure which one of us was most shocked.
But my DC respect and trust me, which isn't going to be the case for every pupil teacher relationship in a school.

I suppose being told off is a punishment, - mum being grumpy because you've been a dick is a natural consequence. But pupils don't care about the feelings of a teacher.

Two of my DC are diagnosed ND and I was able to work around that at home. It's not always possible for that in schools . I think some schools do a great job (and some really don't) but there just aren't the resources in state schools.

Sorry if that's jumbled, I'm typing on the run!

The value of a teacher is that he can make studying his subject interesting. Have you ever noticed that some teachers make even interesting things boring, while others make even difficult things interesting and arouse a desire to study.

I'm afraid that is again a very naïve way of looking at things, OP. I've been a teacher for 30 years in a wide variety of schools. I'm a good teacher. It was and is my vocation (decided age 12!). I've worked with hundreds of good teachers. The majority of us devote huge amounts of time and energy (often at the expense of our well-being and time with our own families) trying to make our lessons fun, interesting and useful.

However, for many kids, maths or French or chemistry is never going to be interesting, however good the teacher. Certainly not anywhere near interesting enough to make them listen in class and do their homework out of sheer interest and motivation (rather than sanctions if they don't). To be fair, I didn't understand this before I started teaching, so it's not surprising you don't.

But we still have to teach these children who (despite our best efforts) have no desire to learn. And for their sake, and the sake of the other children in their classes, we have to have ways to make them behave and make them learn (as far as we can). We do our best to do that in supportive ways, especially for kids who have needs, and reasons for their behaviour. But a large proportion of kids who misbehave just do it because they can and because it's more fun than maths.

It doesn’t always work, though. I’ve seen unruly children run rings around their gentle, nurturing parents. I think you’re making the mistake of seeing everyone else’s experience through your own eyes. You obviously didn’t go off the rails, and didn’t get punished, so you seem to believe that this experience would extend to everyone else.

You’re also ignoring the fact that many kids have shit parents. How many of these parents, many of whom will have grown up with their own trauma and have lacked parenting themselves, are capable of being turned around, and how? Unfortunately we don’t live in a utopia where everyone is capable, or even prepared to be the best that they can be. Plenty of parents don’t give a shit about their children. These are more likely to be the ones running amok in schools. What’s the solution?

I didn't really do punishments with mine. I did tell them off, which is a punishment and praised positive behaviour. I don't think never telling kids off creates nice children.
I see running a school with thousands of teenagers in a building to be very different from raising a couple of kids though. As I said I wouldn't have wanted my kids to go to a school with no sanctions as they wouldn't have been safe, happy and learning because of the chaos.

You’re comparing apples and bananas. In Russia kids are heavily, regularly tested and kept back a year if they fail? Is that not punishment?

If a child is late for class in the UK, they have to come back later to see the teacher who will go over the work they’ve missed, and establish whether they have understood the rest of the lesson after they’ve missed the start. That’s not a punishment, if anything it’s the teacher that’s being punished.

No, it’s you who doesn’t understand. You said five out of a class of 30. One would be bad enough and spark investigations here and queries from a visiting Ofsted inspector if they discovered it. 16% of a class (even if it’s a total of 30 out of a big school) is completely shocking.

In an ideal world there would be adults and funding to work with teenagers individually to help them want to learn, not be late etc etc.

But back in the current situation in the UK a certain amount of 'crowd control' is required if we aren't just going to give up on kids. And detentions are part of crowd control.

I've been happy with the Comp my dc have attended. It has a system of sanctions and rewards, but the teachers seem caring and to want the best for the dc. Younger one is in sixth form now. They've both been happy and done well. Would I have liked them to go to the same school if there had been no sanctions? No way! It would have been chaos and my kids wouldn't have been safe and they'd have learned nothing and been unhappy.

Just to add, I started school in 76 and the Head teachers of my Infant and Junior school still used corporal punishment! So you can see why sitting in a room doesn't sound too bad to me. 😀

I do know what you mean about your son as my DC is very scared of getting a detention.

The students who actually get detentions (or sit in a room maybe doing some homework) aren't generally scared of getting detentions. Irritated maybe.