Detentions as a punishment

If you think Kendrick - a grammar I think? - operates with no sanctions you’re deluded. It may not need as many, since as a selective school it is likely to have a more engaged cohort, but it will have some.

Which schools? What are their methods?

The difference between sanctions and lack of sanctions is obvious even within the same school, by the way. Students will often prioritise doing their homework for the teachers who reliably give detentions for missed homework and not bother to do homework for the teachers who just prefer to keep 'reminding them of the rules'.

@SweatyLama you are not a teacher. I have been a teacher for 3 decades. The last time you were in school was when you were a child? I ask again, what makes you think you know as well as or better than me or other teachers here what is effective in getting students to learn or to study?

You say 'Let's say both systems are effective'. No, I don't believe that both systems are effective.

OP we want children to learn. Learning is not always fun. So sometimes there need to be sanctions to persuade children to learn for their own good. Or some of them will just take the piss, frankly.

Lots of schools are judged outstanding, including some incredibly draconian ones (isn’t the Michaela school outstanding?)

Schools do spend an enormous amount of time and effort working with some children to help them manage their behaviour, when their behaviour is due to trauma, special needs or other problems.

It would be absolutely ridiculous, completely unmanageable and also ineffective for schools to have a therapeutic plan and in-depth conversations with every student who failed to hand in homework or misbehaved in class.

You are quite simply wrong about sanctions not working. Every morning I see students in my form hurriedly completing homework in order not to get a detention. Every day I see students respond to warnings about their behaviour so that they don't get a detention. Yes, of course there are sone students who will not amend their behaviour, but what evidence do you have from schools (in this country) that detentions are not a deterrent?

OP, have you had a chance to be inside your son’s school - at an open day, etc. Did it give you any feel for what British teenagers are actually like? A typical school has around 200 children a year in classes of around 30, asking them nicely to do things and then letting it go doesn’t really work very well in practice. It would be nice if it did, but it doesn’t.

Secondary state schools in England are massive and there can be lots of bad behaviour, disruption in class, etc. It is the way teachers have to control behaviour.

Your school experience was probably similar to mine but I went to a small state girls secondary school. And yes if you failed you resit or repeat the year.

No sure I would have coped with a 1600 to 3000 pupils coed state school if I grew up in England.

We only spent 5 hours at school too, either morning or afternoon

There is a vanishingly small number of teachers who entered teaching in order to give out sanctions/detentions/hoard the pen supplies/police the toilet queue!

(There might be one or two in senior management who enjoy their reputation for 'running a tight ship', who knows?)

Yet those of us who actually work in schools are telling you that schools in this country, at this time, need some kind of sanction system.

What's the point of comparing other countries that are more socially cohesive/equal, have more disapprobation for behaviour out of the norm, or higher respect for the teaching profession, don't try to educate the whole cohort, or have more resources? It's comparing apples and bananas and saying that the latter is an overly sweet squishy cylindrical apple!

As the late great Terry Pratchett wrote, "We are here and this is now."

I completely agree with the original poster and share concerns about how strict and punitive detention policies are in this country. It feels unnecessarily harsh and rigid, especially for young children who are still developing emotionally. I worry that these approaches create anxiety and fear, contributing to the growing mental health crisis among teens. The increasing number of school refusers is alarming, and I believe the stressful school environment plays a major role in this issue. In many cases, it doesn’t feel like a safe or nurturing space for children.

I was educated in a different country, (which is consistently rated as one of the happiest in the world!) If a student was late to class, they would simply slip in and get on with the lesson. If it became a pattern, they would be called in for a conversation to understand the reasons and work together on a plan to address it. In addition, we received a separate grade for behavior, which included things like punctuality and attitude. If there were ongoing issues, it would reflect in this grade and could impact our overall score and future educational opportunities. It was a natural consequence that felt more aligned with the behavior, rather than the immediate punishment of detentions, which seem to instill fear without addressing underlying causes.

I don't agree, and the reason I don't is that the vast majority of parents and.teachers (even senior management) have very little influence over the broad social, cultural and economic factors that are driving these behaviours and responses.

I mean, I might prefer talking to students to giving sanctions but can I? No! I need to work within my employer's system.

My DD would do better at school with cooking class every day rather than once a week. Is that likely to be an option? No!

I don't mean to suggest I wouldn't push back (and have) if I see a real ethical conflict, but you do have to do your research and pick your battles.

OP I was commenting on the fact that you thought 20 pens would mean a teacher was well stocked for pens.

Unfortunately British youth culture (especially in deprived areas) is often one of not wanting to learn. Where I live, the kids that do want to learn have to pretend they don’t or they’re called a ‘sweat’ and ostracised by the rough kids. You may as well just close the schools if your solution is to just give up on these children, many of whom have little parental guidance. That isn’t their fault.

It would be reverting to the old days where there was no social mobility. The poor were uneducated and kept in their place.

Years ago, teachers could hit you for a misdemeanour. That’s against the law now, thank goodness but it also means that schools have to find another deterrent for bad behaviour. The past few decades have shown that a ‘zero tolerance’ approach works. In my school we’d get a detention for not walking single-file in the corridor in silence, or not standing when a teacher entered the room. Nobody would have dared to be cheeky to a teacher when the sanctions were so strict. This meant no disruptions in class and everyone was able to learn which was best for everyone.

OP, it's a different culture.

I hope that you have picked up that it's also a different culture to the one most of us Brits grew up in.

Schools were a lot more free and easy in the UK in the 80s and 90s in terms of what was taught, behaviour management, what teachers and kids could do.

Things are different now, including the curriculum; school (or at least, education) is compulsory for longer; core subjects (English, Maths, Science) have more challenging content; vocational and creative subjects have been downgraded. A lot more students are doing A-levels and going on to university; uniform codes are stricter. Buildings are overcrowded.

There is arguably more to rebel against!

I thought reminding them of the rules would be enough.