Detentions as a punishment

Hey @SweatyLama I’ve been following this thread slightly open-mouthed and am now moved to comment.

You seem to have some very curious ideas. And I gather you are not a secondary school teacher and tbh don’t seem to have been in many or any secondary school classrooms. But you hope “everything is fine there”. OK. I mean it’s not, at all, but that’s another thread.

I am still not clear how you would deal with the student described by a PP who is as tall as a fully grown man, swearing and throwing the furniture. Do they not deserve any kind of sanction?

It’s certainly not the case that the only reason students go to school is to avoid getting a sanction. The vast majority attend school more or less willingly, aware that it is important for their future and that working hard will get them somewhere.

Some DC have various barriers to their learning which teachers and other staff will try to work through. Sometimes this means there is a sanction. Often this is to support the rest of the class in being able to learn. I see that as a positive thing.

Most students in a big secondary school are not walking around in fear of sanctions. In fact I would venture to say that a decent majority rarely or never get any kind of sanction. No teacher wants to issue detentions. What they want is to be able to teach their lesson and support the students with their learning, in the best way they can. If this means a warning of consequences if poor behaviour continues, then that’s fine by me and I would support the school if my DC were misbehaving.

If your DS does what he should do then it is more than possible for him never to have any detentions, and more importantly, to progress through his school career with success and do the best he can.

That's ridiculous. Why are you assuming all kids have the same attitude to school? Some kids actively like school. Some don't love it, but know that it's important. Some hate it and wouldn't go if they could get away with it. I imagine that has always been the case, in pretty much all schools in pretty much all countries.

I am not in the UK but understand that discipline is necessary to be quite honest you sound like some of the art teachers I had no discipline which made class a disaster.

Nice non answer there.

What would YOU do when faced with a 6ft 16 yo barging into the room, telling you to fuck off when you ask him to sit down quietly, and then he throws a chair across the room and it hits another child.

Have zero consequences for his actions?

Please tell us the magic solutions you have.

But that knowledge won't make that disengaged 16 yo from disrupting your class or being aggressive...

I agree that watching Educating Essex might make you understand what teachers are dealing with OP. I remember when my dd started at the local comp I was quite shocked at how strict some things were compared to my own grammar school. I realised after a while that the strictness was aimed at kids who were far worse behaved and would take full advantage if given an inch.
They can't say "X is badly behaved so if she doesn't do homework we'll do this but Y sitting next to her is well meaning, so if she doesn't bring in homework we'll let her off." It would be an unfair system.

Yes, they do. But it can be almost impossible to remain motivated when youve got some argumentative kids disrupting their lessons.

Not often - because they’ve learned in school that breaking the rules lands them in trouble 😂
OP, you do sound very naive about what behaviour can be like in school amongst groups of hormonal teens. Stepping into a classroom can be brutal, and it’s not helped when parents tell their kids that they shouldn't get punished if they misbehave.

In my experience maybe 70 ish percent of a secondary school class are motivated with no external incentive or deterrent necessary. Maybe another 25% will follow the rules without argument if the incentives and deterrents clearly showing where the boundaries are. And for maybe 5% it doesn’t work. But that 25% makes an enormous difference in a classroom.
And again, just like with toddlers, punishment is not the point. A relatively immediate consequence to disruptive behavior just marks clearly to the kids where that boundary is.
Your school had punishment too - you said they called pupils’ parents when there was an issue. Some kids would take a lunchtime detention over getting their parents involved any day.

of course, and that’s why they should be disciplined.

It’s not entirely true. Most teens know that lessons are important, at least in terms of passing exams and giving themselves options in life. The thing is though that kids are rubbish at planning ahead like that, so even if in some abstract way they know school is important, the threat a detention can help a lot with the motivation to do the homework every week in year 10 or to turn up to maths class on time even though they don’t like the subject in year 11.
That need for ongoing motivation may not have been necessary in your school environment if the kids already considered themselves lucky not to be in the 25% without the option or support to be at school with them.

Well, isn't that the general foundation of society.... Human beings.... We all stop ourselves stealing/being violent etc for fear of punishment..? For fear of our peers seeking retribution or consequence.

If society allowed any behaviours without recrimination... The world would be savage. It's human nature/survival instinct... You don't pick a fight with the bigger/stronger/more powerful... Because they'd hurt or kill you.

Yes the school system should change.

The first two things that should change are to restore funding per pupil in real terms back to where it was about 12 years ago and reinstate Building Schools for the Future.

Use the fall in the birth rate to have smaller secondary schools (a lot of the problems stem from cramming too many kids into classrooms and corridors built for smaller numbers). Reinstate Sure Start. Reinstate school nurses so each secondary has one. Train a lot more educational psychologists.

Train teachers better. I've been a teacher for 13 years now and all the really useful learning I've done has been on my own initiative and at my own expense. I can count on the fingers of one hand the useful days I've spent in INSET.

I won't comment on the curriculum as there is a review of it going on.

But! This would take real political will and nothing much would change in the 5-7 years any individual child spends at secondary. It would have to be done as a future investment.

So I agree the OP's choices are lump it (although she could become a governor); investigate the other schools locally; pay, or home educate.

The problem with that is that you can’t treat one child differently from another. The naughtier students will notice the discrepancies immediately

They could lose their place at the school and then you f*** aren't you