Page 2 | Effect of VAT on admissions - any intel?

BarqsHasBite · 2024-09-28T17:44:33+00:00

We are applying for secondaries for DS, main target is an independent school but he’s also tried for a partially selective state school. Am wondering if anyone has any intel on the effect on admissions numbers of Labour’s VAT on school fees policy? I went to the open morning for our target school and having attended the same event last year numbers did seem down. In previous years it has been fully booked, but I’d say today the hall was 3/4 full at most. However, another nearby indy was also having an open day so that could have been a reason other than VAT. On the state school side of the coin: my friend’s son sat the entrance exam for QE Barnet and she estimated there were 4,000 boys sitting it over two days - if so that’s up around a third on last year! Does anyone else have any actual or anecdotal insights please?

Morph22010 · 02/10/2024 06:13

twistyizzy · 02/10/2024 06:04

No that's wrong. You have to give 1 term's notice to leave indy so that parent went to Bucks County to apply for state school place. She was told she had to prove that she couldn't afford the fees. That is downright discrimination and Bucks County have subsequently apologised and retracted that as it amounted to means testing.
They can't have it both ways, tax parents past point of affordability but then require proof that they can't afford the fees in order to access a state place.

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She had given one terms notice but the child was still at school they hadn’t left and were without a school place. Once the child had actually left the independent school and there was no school place available then they couldn’t insist on her proving she couldn’t afford to go back to a private school before fair access protocol happened. where they went wrong was asking for her to prove affordability so as to start the process early. Strictly they could have just said come back once child is out of school then we will activate fair access protocol.

the same when people are moving house, the la won’t give you a school place in advance you actually have to have moved into the area so there can be a period of time where a child has no school to go to.

twistyizzy · 02/10/2024 06:04

Morph22010 · 01/10/2024 22:13

This is abit misrepresented. What it was is that where there is not a school place available the parent/child cannot access fair access protocol if they already have a school place elsewhere. Rather than making people wait until their child had actually left the indepdent school parents were being allowed fair access protocol if they were able to prove they couldn’t afford the fees, if the la wanted to be pedantic they could just make people wait until the child was out of school completely then they’d be a delay while they had no school at all.

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No that's wrong. You have to give 1 term's notice to leave indy so that parent went to Bucks County to apply for state school place. She was told she had to prove that she couldn't afford the fees. That is downright discrimination and Bucks County have subsequently apologised and retracted that as it amounted to means testing.
They can't have it both ways, tax parents past point of affordability but then require proof that they can't afford the fees in order to access a state place.

SheilaFentiman · 01/10/2024 23:00

Morph22010 · 01/10/2024 22:34

If there Sen is severe enough they should be able to get an ehcp which means the fees of a school that could meet needs would be funded in full by the la including vat if that was the named school. Trouble is the ehcp system is completely broken, it takes years and a lot of fighting by parents which can be soul destroying and incredibly stressful. Lots of parents where the child should be entitled to an ehcp choose not to fight snd instead send their child to an independent thst they self fund. To get a grant to fund the vat I’d imagine they’d have as big a fight to prove Sen as they would for an ehcp so it just wouldn’t work

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Yes, I agree it wouldn’t work from an SEN assessment perspective- the above was in reply to a poster suggesting different VAT treatments by pupil.

Morph22010 · 01/10/2024 22:38

justasking111 · 01/10/2024 12:44

Our local private school have an £18 million wish list, new gymnasium, boarding houses etc. I wonder if this will slow it down.

They take SEN pupils from here and abroad paid for by many local education authorities. My friends son went there 7 years ago as a day pupil. Fees then were £31k. This will hurt councils.

If councils pay the fees with vat added they are able to reclaim the vat

Morph22010 · 01/10/2024 22:34

SheilaFentiman · 01/10/2024 09:37

I’m not a tax specialist but I don’t see how you could exempt a service from VAT by the nature of its users/customers rather than by nature of the service.

So I can see how, say, a tutoring agency delivering dyslexia support might be exempt from adding VAT. But not a provider of general education.

The only way I can see would be for a child to get a specific grant to cover the VAT (say) if their SEN were severe enough.

Edited

If there Sen is severe enough they should be able to get an ehcp which means the fees of a school that could meet needs would be funded in full by the la including vat if that was the named school. Trouble is the ehcp system is completely broken, it takes years and a lot of fighting by parents which can be soul destroying and incredibly stressful. Lots of parents where the child should be entitled to an ehcp choose not to fight snd instead send their child to an independent thst they self fund. To get a grant to fund the vat I’d imagine they’d have as big a fight to prove Sen as they would for an ehcp so it just wouldn’t work

Morph22010 · 01/10/2024 22:19

noblegiraffe · 30/09/2024 07:32

the rich people have already prepaid their fees (without VAT) so aren’t even impacted by this (we know someone who has prepaid 12 years in advance)

Tax experts say that they will still have to pay the extra VAT as they haven't actually been billed for those 12 years yet. They can't have paid a bill that hasn't been issued.

Under normal vat rules the vat point is the earlier of when payment is received or when an invoice is raised so not sure what tax experts are saying the opposite.

Morph22010 · 01/10/2024 22:13

CruCru · 29/09/2024 12:58

There was a thing in the Telegraph about Buckinghamshire having had loads of applications for state schools and telling someone they should prove they can’t afford the private school any more. It’s behind a paywall but there’s something here about it: https://www.bucksfreepress.co.uk/news/24569930.council-asks-mum-prove-school-finances-ahead-new-vat/

This is abit misrepresented. What it was is that where there is not a school place available the parent/child cannot access fair access protocol if they already have a school place elsewhere. Rather than making people wait until their child had actually left the indepdent school parents were being allowed fair access protocol if they were able to prove they couldn’t afford the fees, if the la wanted to be pedantic they could just make people wait until the child was out of school completely then they’d be a delay while they had no school at all.

LangYang · 01/10/2024 22:05

Too right @BarqsHasBite , look forward to hearing about that contribution!

I’ve also been a volunteer reading listener at our local state primary school where my children didn’t and won’t attend.

I help sixth formers with their personal statements (though that will stop now with the new policy) for university at the local comp - boys and girls at a school I have no connection with - but I do get a thrill when I get thank you cards telling me what uni they got into.

most of the private school parents I know contribute to their local school or community in some way either with their money or their time and for entirely altruistic reasons that don’t benefit them or their family. So sick of all the crap that gets flung our way!

Original poster

BarqsHasBite · 01/10/2024 21:09

GoldLameDarling · 01/10/2024 14:17

I have some intel right here OP:

The effect will be that those who can afford it will still go to private school

And their parents will continue not to give a flying crap about the majority of kids who can't.

Also quite far from the truth here!

I’ve helped one friend with her EHCP application to get specialist state provision and I helped someone else (who I don’t even know!) prepare their secondary school appeal on SEN grounds.

I’ve also been involved in successful campaigning to expand our local secondary school as kids from where I live were being sent to a faith school a long journey away across the other side of town (no buses, no safe or easy walking route) or single sex schools (again, travel to the girls’ school is difficult and not necessarily safe). This has included lobbying councillors, our MP, petitions etc.

During the pandemic I lobbied our MP to try to get mobile phone companies to make it free to access learning websites such as BBC Bitesize and White Rose. This is because I was concerned that the only access to online learning that some families had was via mobile phones, and data charges meant it was prohibitive. The MP’s office took this up with the mobile phone companies, though it turned out there were technical reasons why it wasn’t as easy as I hoped (eg they couldn’t make BBC bite size free without giving free access to all BBC content).

My family benefits from none of this and I’m very much aiming to send my kids to independent secondary schools next year and the year after.

I’ve also volunteered to listen to kids read at our local infants school (my kids were pupils but am not sure they be benefited from me hearing other kids read), and I’ve donated a lot of clothes (mainly spare pants and socks), craft materials and huge numbers of books to the school since my kids left.

Perhaps you’d like to share what you’ve done to improve state education?

OP posts:

Another76543 · 01/10/2024 19:26

GoldLameDarling · 01/10/2024 14:17

I have some intel right here OP:

The effect will be that those who can afford it will still go to private school

And their parents will continue not to give a flying crap about the majority of kids who can't.

This is very far from the truth. My children will remain in private school. We will find the money. However, I do care about lovely friends who might not be able to afford it. I care about the lovely staff at schools who might now be made redundant.

nearlylovemyusername · 01/10/2024 14:54

GoldLameDarling · 01/10/2024 14:17

I have some intel right here OP:

The effect will be that those who can afford it will still go to private school

And their parents will continue not to give a flying crap about the majority of kids who can't.

Wow! thank you, that was very informative

GoldLameDarling · 01/10/2024 14:17

I have some intel right here OP:

The effect will be that those who can afford it will still go to private school

And their parents will continue not to give a flying crap about the majority of kids who can't.

justasking111 · 01/10/2024 13:57

My DIL has been increasingly concerned re her DCs math progress at primary. She signed up for a maths app suitable to their ages. Spent the summer catching up because they were so far behind. Both bright children.

Last week the year threes were buddied up with year fours and set English and math tests.

My grandchild year three did the math one, helping the year four who hadn't ever seen it.

Now this year four is drowning in SEN children, TAs laid off because of 15% budget cuts in 12 months. It's a perfect storm for the teaching staff.

My advice check your child's abilities independently of the glowing reports that the school give. If necessary augment their education.

twistyizzy · 01/10/2024 13:55

GrammarTeacher · 01/10/2024 13:10

That's a reason for the government to fix the SEN situation in state schools which it should. It is not a reason to enable independent education.

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The state doesn't "enable" indy schools. If anything indy schools relieve pressure on state. Currently indy schools pay VAT on all purchases but can't re-claim it, they will now be able to do that plus will have to charge VAT to parents.

GrammarTeacher · 01/10/2024 13:10

twistyizzy · 01/10/2024 10:06

Because kids with SEN in Indy schools don't need an EHCP to access support. So many parents turn to indy due to delays and barriers of getting an EHCP to access appropriate support in state. That's not to say state schools cant/don't support SEN but there is no denying that there is an SEN crisis in state. As an example my friend teaches on state and her current primary class has 33% SEN which take up 80% of her time. This means the other 67% of non SEN kids get the remaining 20% of her time. This simply isn't acceptable for any of the kids in her class as none are getting what they need.

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That's a reason for the government to fix the SEN situation in state schools which it should. It is not a reason to enable independent education.

justasking111 · 01/10/2024 12:44

Our local private school have an £18 million wish list, new gymnasium, boarding houses etc. I wonder if this will slow it down.

They take SEN pupils from here and abroad paid for by many local education authorities. My friends son went there 7 years ago as a day pupil. Fees then were £31k. This will hurt councils.

Mimmamm · 01/10/2024 12:28

We just got a mail from a very popular local girls independent school that they are increasing the fees by 20% from January because of VAT.
It was the most competitive independent school to get into in the area and had waiting list. But this time I think they still have space.

Original poster

BarqsHasBite · 01/10/2024 12:13

noblegiraffe · 01/10/2024 09:59

I think I’m right in assuming you are supportive of the addition of VAT to school fees generally.

I’m pretty non-committal tbh. If it raises money for state schools that would be nice but that appears to be up in the air so we’ll have to see. I am however pissed off at the amount of airtime it is getting and all the handwringing about private school kids compared to state school kids, including state school kids with SEN which is an absolute heartbreaking mess.

I don’t see how the government could admit that a kid with an SEN but no EHCP simply needs private education. That would be admitting that state education can be a failure for SEN children. Which it is, but they have to try to fix that not just say ‘ok it’s a disaster but if you can afford private school fees we won’t put VAT on them just for you.’

And there are kids with SEN diagnoses for whom state education is absolutely fine.

You’re right of course that the government could hardly admit in parliament that state SEN provision is a disaster - though they could and no doubt would have a pop at the Tories about the state they got it into.

But equally (how) could they credibly argue that it’s all a rose garden and there’s really no need for any parent to send SEN child to an independent? Yes, some SEN kids are very well supported in the state system but for huge numbers that’s not the case. I really don’t know the answer.

I largely blame Labour for the amount of airtime this is getting, why aren’t they coming up with proper costed proposals which would actually make a difference to state education? It suits them well to turn it into an ideological battle between the haves and the have-nots,
means no-one is actually scrutinising their shortcomings.

OP posts:

Peskydahlias · 01/10/2024 11:35

Yep @newmum1976 I think the irony of the policy in this bit of London might be that admissions to very good state sixth forms are more dominated by the wealthy, with less places for bright students who have over achieved their schools GCSE average. However, I am not an expert on state school sixth form admissions criteria so I can't comment on this in detail. It's hardly surprising that the policy will lead to more wealthy parents using places at good state schools ...

user149799568 · 01/10/2024 11:15

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newmum1976 · 01/10/2024 11:10

Peskydahlias · 01/10/2024 10:34

I'm not sure about bookings at open days for 2025 entry, but I know at our place that Year 7 was completely unaffected. It's very oversubscribed so presumably they made more offers and we'll just become less selective over time with more very very wealthy parents (it's in London). The big impact as @bravefox has mentioned is in the sixth form. LOTS leaving after Year 11 for state
sixth form, far more than normal. And recruitment of new students down. I don't think this is just the VAT actually, but also their perception (rightly or wrongly) that they are more likely to get into Oxbridge if they apply from a state school. But mostly the fees. I think anyone applying for a selective sixth form from another state school night have a harder time as (where I am) the private school kids mostly have straight 8s+9s so realistically will be accepted wherever they apply. and lots are accepted at sixth form to schools they didn't get in Year 7.

This is our experience too. My DD has joined a state selective sixth form and new starters are mainly from private schools or other grammars.

Original poster

BarqsHasBite · 01/10/2024 10:48

nearlylovemyusername · 01/10/2024 10:21

Have you read the post you quoted? this was on exam day, the queue to collect kids

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I think @user149799568’s point is that the only way to know for sure (this year’s numbers vs previous year’s numbers) is from the school’s punished admissions stats when they come out. And we don’t know if they count applicants who filled in the form or those who actually turned up on the day and completed all the exams.

Estimating the number of applicants based on parents waiting on the day and comparing this with last year’s school stats may give a skewed impression, if what the school counts is the number of application forms received - I don’t think we know.

But maybe I’m overthinking it all!

OP posts:

Peskydahlias · 01/10/2024 10:34

I'm not sure about bookings at open days for 2025 entry, but I know at our place that Year 7 was completely unaffected. It's very oversubscribed so presumably they made more offers and we'll just become less selective over time with more very very wealthy parents (it's in London). The big impact as @bravefox has mentioned is in the sixth form. LOTS leaving after Year 11 for state
sixth form, far more than normal. And recruitment of new students down. I don't think this is just the VAT actually, but also their perception (rightly or wrongly) that they are more likely to get into Oxbridge if they apply from a state school. But mostly the fees. I think anyone applying for a selective sixth form from another state school night have a harder time as (where I am) the private school kids mostly have straight 8s+9s so realistically will be accepted wherever they apply. and lots are accepted at sixth form to schools they didn't get in Year 7.

nearlylovemyusername · 01/10/2024 10:21

user149799568 · 30/09/2024 09:37

What do QE Boys count as an applicant? DC who register for the exam and DC who actually sit the exam? Typically, something like 20-25% of the girls who register for the Henrietta Barnett exam don't show up on the day.

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Have you read the post you quoted? this was on exam day, the queue to collect kids

Another76543 · 01/10/2024 10:12

puffyisgood · 01/10/2024 09:47

the wording of Eton's letter to parents announcing that fees will rise to a mere £63k per child per year is probably instructive here. they didn't announce the fee rise as a contingency plan which will be enacted in the unlikely event that the legal challenge will fail, but rather as something that is going to happen, which is surely will.

As far as I’m aware, Eton’s letter was sent before the legal challenge was announced. In any case, as things currently stand, the VAT is being introduced from January so it’s no surprise that schools are planning for that. It’s worth noting as well that many schools still haven’t announced their fee increases due to VAT and are waiting until at least after the budget.