Page 5 | Are textbooks (printed or digital) not used any more? How do students revise?

ParentOfOne · 2024-09-19T08:49:15+00:00

We are looking into secondary schools and are a bit shocked at what seems to be the trend of getting rid of textbooks in the UK. This has been a bit of problem in primary school, when our child asks for help, we explain something, she says the teacher explained it differently, but doesn't know how... because there is no textbook!! At primary school it's not been anything over which to lose sleep, but in secondary it might be different. - Is this really a trend all over the country? - Across both private and public (we're not considering private, just curious)? - I don't care whether the material is printed or online, but are students expected to revise based on the notes they take in class? Taking notes for a detailed history class might be harder than for a maths class. But how about subjects like biology, which require all kinds of graphs and images? - What are your thoughts? - Have you bought textbooks? How do your children revise? - Getting rid of textbooks might be a way to cut on costs, but I suppose there is plenty of free material online to explain fractions logarithms WW1 etc I know many people who are university lecturers, and they all tend to think this trend is a catastrophe, because by the time they start university students are not used to the concept of studying a textbook, they expect that anything can and should be summarised into a few bullet points on a slide.

Ladybowes · 19/09/2024 17:57

@ParentOfOne absolutely - especially the good ones. Many also pay for the subscriptions for online revision resources - and there are many free ones which schools know about and should advise parents and students about. When your visiting secondaries if you haven't already you can ask them about this.

Malaguena123 · 19/09/2024 17:57

And teachers don't have time to trawl through endless websites either! Textbooks are very expensive -£24 a copy in my subject. Electronic versions cost ££££££ a year and in my subject, instead of buying CDs for the listening resources (which used to cost hundreds anyway as they could be copied) publishers came up with wheeze of charging hundreds per year for subscriptions to them instead. It costs therefore ££££ a year just for digital access before you think about hard copies- which the kids draw on and generally treat v badly!

Original poster

ParentOfOne · 19/09/2024 17:52

@Ladybowes Thank you. So, if I understand correctly, you are saying that in secondary schools there tends to be a bit more guidance from the teachers on where to find material (whether online or printed) to revise, compared to primary school? If so, that's reassuring.

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Original poster

ParentOfOne · 19/09/2024 17:49

@FrippEnos I get it that textbooks are expensive. But aren't there enough free resources online? Couldn't teachers say: "website X is very similar to what we have been doing while Y follows a rather different approach"? Are these lessons so intimately bespoke and customised that no resource exists to which students and parents can be pointed?

A quick search on fractions for primary school gives me:
https://thirdspacelearning.com/blog/fractions-ks2/
https://mathsnoproblem.com/en/approach/fractions
https://home.oxfordowl.co.uk/maths/primary-fractions/fractions-year-2-age-6-7/
https://emile-education.com/fractions-tips-and-activities-worksheets/

A quick search on logarithms for secondary schools gives me:
https://mathcentre.ac.uk/resources/uploaded/mc-ty-logarithms-2009-1.pdf
https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zn3ty9q/revision/1
https://www.highermathematics.co.uk/exponentials-logs/

Crawling through all the stuff online can be time-consuming; also, not every child or parent has the maturity / knowledge to understand which material can be best suited

Teaching Fractions KS2: A Guide For Primary School Teachers From Year 3 To Year 6

A comprehensive guide to teaching fractions at KS2 using a maths mastery approach, with lesson ideas and example problems.

https://thirdspacelearning.com/blog/fractions-ks2

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Ladybowes · 19/09/2024 17:44

@ParentOfOne I was attempting to answer some of your questions, particularly how students revise. Teachers should be supporting learners to revise - they might suggest resources that would be supportive and a good secondary will have access to many websites that support children learning and revision. Textbooks are largely digital for many good reasons and I'm not quite sure what your point is now?

Also in most good secondary students get topic organisers which are very useful and often contain a list of what students need to learn. There will be most likely links to digital textbooks - which in most cases you can buy hard copies of - however, many of the digital books have links to websites and other resources which are not available if you just have the hard copy.

When you get to secondary there will come a point when you might not necessarily be able to support your child in what the teacher has been explaining in class - my advice for what it's worth, is to support them in becoming confident enough to ask questions in class, to seek clarification on things they don't understand.

FrippEnos · 19/09/2024 17:41

ParentOfOne

As has been posted textbooks are expensive,
They also get damaged very easily.
Most teachers will find a way around it, from photocopying to scanning.

FrippEnos · 19/09/2024 17:39

senua · 19/09/2024 10:39

"teacher re-writing their own textbook. Every. Single. Year."
what do you mean every year? Isn't it almost a one-off exercise? How much can the material change from year to year? Or do schools change not so much the topics but the way they are presented?
You'd have to ask a teacher this because the system makes no sense to me!

Its not about the materials as such it is about the make up of the class.
Every lesson has to be a bespoke lesson to the ability of the class including SEND, G&T, EAL, FSM (yup even that one) and grades from U - 9.

Original poster

ParentOfOne · 19/09/2024 17:29

"You're clearly not a teacher - the skill of the teacher when it comes to revision can't be underestimated here. You can have as many textbooks as you like but if you learn the wrong material or you don't under the assessment objectives of the exam you will get a poor mark or possibly even fail."

@Ladybowes Correct, I am not a teacher.
I'll admit I am not sure I follow your point.
Is there anything specific you disagree on?

I don't think I ever downplayed the importance of teachers, nor did I ever imply that a good textbook is more important than a good teacher.

I was simply saying that the work of a good teacher can be completed by having clarity on where to find material to revise the concepts explained by the teacher; whether this material is online or printed is irrelevant.
Again, I don't like the approach I have seen in some cases of: "if you want to revise it's your job to find which of the many online or printed resources you want to use"

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SmileyHappyPeopleInTheSun · 19/09/2024 17:28

drastikaction · 19/09/2024 16:37

@ParentOfOne "If a younger child struggles to remember / understand a concept, and you explain it to them in a different way, chances are you will just be adding confusion on top of confusion. And why, what for?"

Completely disagree. Showing a younger child different ways to do the same thing embeds their understanding.

We were told this by DC first primary school - that wasn't getting great Sats in maths.

We turned to a paid for on-line site - mathsfactor- that covered "new methods" and ways DH and I had learnt logically working though them. Worked well for them - they just went though the levels at their own pace little and often and school did it's thing in their hours.

It was a bit worrying when we had few teachers say we don't understand what they did but they got the right answer - once they got to specialist maths teachers in secondary that stopped happening.

My parents were told similar with reading - and ended up with two struggling readers and they ignored it with third child.

TBH with pretty much everything we ended up doing this - find a program to work though with maths, reading. spelling and handwriting going though it and then on top reading or watching stuff round topic area.

Rarely saw their primary school work 5 minutes before a parent teacher meeting all their books to flip though - occasionally seeing their work on a wall. Similar with secondary reports here are two letter and a one or two word comment - we have to rely on the kids saying they are struggling or seeing predicted grades drop and then stepping in.

Original poster

ParentOfOne · 19/09/2024 16:54

drastikaction · 19/09/2024 16:37

@ParentOfOne "If a younger child struggles to remember / understand a concept, and you explain it to them in a different way, chances are you will just be adding confusion on top of confusion. And why, what for?"

Completely disagree. Showing a younger child different ways to do the same thing embeds their understanding.

But we are talking about young children, not about mathematicians taking graduate level calculus. Teachers would often expect exercises to be done in a certain way, even if multiple alternatives exist. I totally agree that there is benefit in teaching multiple ways, but it doesn't help much if the child cannot do it the way the teacher taught.

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Ladybowes · 19/09/2024 16:49

ParentOfOne · 19/09/2024 16:23

I would tend to disagree.

I think it's important that the teachers give clear indications on where the relevant material can be found. Whether this material is online or printed is irrelevant, whether the teachers wrote the material themselves (slides, handouts etc) or whether they point the students to other kinds of resources is less important, but there needs to be a way to study and revise that is not relying on a combination of memory + notes taken in class.

I do not agree with the idea of "this is the topic, if you want look it up in one of the many websites or books available" because the level of detail, the teaching method, the sub-topics covered etc can vary greatly, and this can be very confusing.

There is also another point, but I know that here opinions will differ and that not everyone will agree, that IMHO it's important to instil the concept that not everything can be summarised into a handful of bullet points on a powerpoint slide. This is something I see a lot at work, where younger hires have a bit of a shock when they learn that some regulatory and legal changes concerning the work are explained in an 80-page report, or that a book on a software they need to learn can be 300 pages. Many of them (not all) are not used to the concept of something to read / study which is more than a handful of pages and isn't mostly bullet points.

Show quote history

You're clearly not a teacher - the skill of the teacher when it comes to revision can't be underestimated here. You can have as many textbooks as you like but if you learn the wrong material or you don't under the assessment objectives of the exam you will get a poor mark or possibly even fail.

Regarding your second point - this is more to do with whether our exam/education system is teaching young people the skills they need for employment, which is clearly up for debate.

drastikaction · 19/09/2024 16:37

@ParentOfOne "If a younger child struggles to remember / understand a concept, and you explain it to them in a different way, chances are you will just be adding confusion on top of confusion. And why, what for?"

Completely disagree. Showing a younger child different ways to do the same thing embeds their understanding.

Octavia64 · 19/09/2024 16:30

I would seriously question what sort of degree your new hires are doing if they are not doing a lot of reading.

For my undergraduate degree the reading list each week would have about 40 papers on it each between 10-60 pages.

You could get away with not reading some of them but not all.

Of course you read papers online.

I guess if maths or similar then maybe less research papers and more methods and problem classes.

Original poster

ParentOfOne · 19/09/2024 16:28

"I think you sound a little technophobic, but hope you will keep an open mind."
??? @drastikaction Why technophobic? Like I said, I am not ranting about a supposed superiority of printed books over online material.

I am complaining about the lack of clear indications of where to find material to double check and revise. Whether this material is printed or online is completely irrelevant.

"That's not what happens"
It did happen at our child's (primary) school, though. So please do not expect your experience to be universal. We explicitly asked the teachers and no clear indications were given, just generic reference to material online or at WhSmith, all quite different from each other.

"With maths, there will always be more than one way to do something, and the earlier they understand that the better. Embrace it, and show them how they can get to the same result in different ways."

Of course. But older children will be more mature and more receptive to this line of reasoning. If a younger child struggles to remember / understand a concept, and you explain it to them in a different way, chances are you will just be adding confusion on top of confusion. And why, what for?

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Original poster

ParentOfOne · 19/09/2024 16:23

Ladybowes · 19/09/2024 16:09

Textbooks are really not necessary especially if you have excellent teachers. I appreciate this is not always the case - but in my experience, when it comes to revision - the expertise of the teacher is king (especially, if they have marked the exam paper for the subject they are teaching)- above and beyond any textbook whether it is a hard copy or online.

I would tend to disagree.

I think it's important that the teachers give clear indications on where the relevant material can be found. Whether this material is online or printed is irrelevant, whether the teachers wrote the material themselves (slides, handouts etc) or whether they point the students to other kinds of resources is less important, but there needs to be a way to study and revise that is not relying on a combination of memory + notes taken in class.

I do not agree with the idea of "this is the topic, if you want look it up in one of the many websites or books available" because the level of detail, the teaching method, the sub-topics covered etc can vary greatly, and this can be very confusing.

There is also another point, but I know that here opinions will differ and that not everyone will agree, that IMHO it's important to instil the concept that not everything can be summarised into a handful of bullet points on a powerpoint slide. This is something I see a lot at work, where younger hires have a bit of a shock when they learn that some regulatory and legal changes concerning the work are explained in an 80-page report, or that a book on a software they need to learn can be 300 pages. Many of them (not all) are not used to the concept of something to read / study which is more than a handful of pages and isn't mostly bullet points.

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drastikaction · 19/09/2024 16:20

ParentOfOne · 19/09/2024 15:54

I understand that textbooks may not always be indispensable.
At primary school, one of the issues we had was that a few times we couldn't explain something to our child because "the teacher did it differently" and, even looking online, searching library books etc, it was never quite fully clear to us which of the many ways to explain a concept was the one used by the teacher and therefore the one which would create the least confusion. Luckily it never became a big problem.

I'd like to think this will be less of an issue at secondary school, if the school will give clearer indications, and also to the extent an older child should be more mature and more likely to understand an explanation even if slightly different from that used by the teacher.

But I would still want the school to give some indication, and not say: we studied logarithms, find yourself one of the many books or websites which explain the topic.

That's not what happens - schools usually have an app that they use for each department, e.g. Dr Frost for maths, so it should always be clear where to go. (If they need an alternative explanation to help consolidate their understanding then they can find another source).

With maths, there will always be more than one way to do something, and the earlier they understand that the better. Embrace it, and show them how they can get to the same result in different ways.

I think you sound a little technophobic, but hope you will keep an open mind.

drastikaction · 19/09/2024 16:14

ParentOfOne · 19/09/2024 13:23

So basically those who can afford it have the upper leg when they can buy more books? Oh what a surprise.
I wonder if school libraries or local council libraries have those books. Some university libraries have textbooks which cannot be borrowed but only read on site, specifically to allow everyone to study on site.

No, that's not fair, because schools will usually cover the cost for pupil premium and other disadvantaged students.

After GCSEs our school encouraged everyone to donate their study guides along with their uniform so they could be recycled according to need.

In Sixth form there's a bursary available for students on certain benefits.

Ladybowes · 19/09/2024 16:09

Textbooks are really not necessary especially if you have excellent teachers. I appreciate this is not always the case - but in my experience, when it comes to revision - the expertise of the teacher is king (especially, if they have marked the exam paper for the subject they are teaching)- above and beyond any textbook whether it is a hard copy or online.

Original poster

ParentOfOne · 19/09/2024 15:54

I understand that textbooks may not always be indispensable.
At primary school, one of the issues we had was that a few times we couldn't explain something to our child because "the teacher did it differently" and, even looking online, searching library books etc, it was never quite fully clear to us which of the many ways to explain a concept was the one used by the teacher and therefore the one which would create the least confusion. Luckily it never became a big problem.

I'd like to think this will be less of an issue at secondary school, if the school will give clearer indications, and also to the extent an older child should be more mature and more likely to understand an explanation even if slightly different from that used by the teacher.

But I would still want the school to give some indication, and not say: we studied logarithms, find yourself one of the many books or websites which explain the topic.

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Meadowfinch · 19/09/2024 14:26

My DS is taking A'levels maths, Phyics and DT. Text books are required, the school sent the order form home. About £120 for the three books.

skyeisthelimit · 19/09/2024 14:17

We were told which novels to buy for GCSE, DNA, McBeth, Lord of The Flies, Jeckyll & Hyde etc. The school had just a few copies if anyone was stuck. They were punished if they didn't have their copy with them for a lesson.

I bought DD lots of revision guides from CGP, Exedel, AQA etc, but you need to know which GCSE board they are taking before you can buy the guides. The school should let you know at the appropriate time.

DD has just started college, and they have been told to have their phones out at all times, in order to take snapshots of the board.

86767ygh · 19/09/2024 13:52

Moving to the UK from abroad - it's been crazy to look at home british kids are being taught. mine is only in primary but I genuinely have no idea what he is learning. They are following a maths scheme online - so we follow that. but i have no idea what they are doing in science or history. all we get is a topic - e.g. monarchy but nothing about what will actually be covered etc etc. It's a complete mess. I do wish they would at least use a single online resources/platform so parents could follow that. otherwise it's incomprehensible how kids/parents are meant to follow it.

SmileyHappyPeopleInTheSun · 19/09/2024 13:45

ParentOfOne · 19/09/2024 13:23

So basically those who can afford it have the upper leg when they can buy more books? Oh what a surprise.
I wonder if school libraries or local council libraries have those books. Some university libraries have textbooks which cannot be borrowed but only read on site, specifically to allow everyone to study on site.

Yep - and I have ranted about that on here before and been told it is what is is and was always thus.

We tell their mates about the good free sites/resources we know of and have passed on now unneeded text books - as my kids all chose slightly different options.

However I feel their secondary is letting my kids down anyway - and we can't access tutors like some of their friends do - so our limited time and money resource have to go on supporting our kids best we can.

Secondary school library isn't well stocked and they made it so only Y11 and above can access in school hours and only Y10 and above after school

The college library - where mine go for A-levels - has the relevant texts - according to DS and several copies.

DD1 uni they have digital copies she can access anywhere and both her department and main library carry books in her subject area.

Council libraries do have some common set texts as just ordinary books or can order them in person or on-line - they may also have generic analysis one like York notes but haven't looked - I suspect they don't have board specific revision book though I could be wrong.

barfotoliv · 19/09/2024 13:41

I'm a high-school English teacher, and I have worked in the state and private sector. No text books. We use Google Slides which are then posted on Google Classroom for students to refer back to and revise. We don't make new ones Every. Single. Year., but we will often tweak and revise them, and change them more substantially every 3-4 years. For example at the moment, I'm currently working on a unit of work for Year 9s. I've scrapped about 5 of the lessons, expanded 2 existing ones, and created 2 brand new ones. If we had textbooks, we would feel obliged to stick with them for as long as possible due to the expense.

For GCSEs, students will again have access to all the slides, and also of course our planning will be based on the exam board's specification, which parents can download themselves also, along with past papers.

Beamur · 19/09/2024 13:40

Sorry, I was too brief.
Students have regular tests, so will need to review their notes and handouts, etc.
For GCSE's I would say make sure you keep up with coursework and regular testing etc. Most kids don't seriously revise until the exams are in sight. Then the revision books can be useful. I found DD wanted me to test her (on stuff I didn't know) but I could grasp it by reading the revision books/flashcards etc.
There's a wide range of ways to learn now so everyone can find a format that suits them.