how common are detentions at secondary?

@CornishIrish did an excellent job linking the Spectator (not Guardian!) article https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-michael-gove-should-know-about-going-to-school-in-singapore/

All the bootlickers who welcome these authoritarian methods should stop and think for a second: would authoritarian and dictatorial regimes (China is a brutal dictatorship, let's not mince words) welcome a learning environment which teaches pupils the kind of critical thinking leading them to say: "Why? Wait a second, the authorities say this, but is it true? Where is the proof? Let's think independently, with our own brains"

I also wonder: these methods may be great for teaching kids how to solve the same exercises the teachers explained. But do they stimulate independent and original thinking? Will these pupils be able to, say, come up with a new, original elegant way to code an algorithm?

There is an amazing book: "Calling Bullshit", by two American science professors, which every secondary school pupil should read, which covers exactly this: how do we distinguish bullshit? How can we tell when we are being lied to? When the supposedly solid scientific evidence backing certain policies is actually a pile of nonsense https://callingbullshit.org/

@Newbutoldfather "And therein lies the issue. Discipline is designed to support the pupil. ."

In theory. In practice, not always. Eg we had already discussed how scientific research on uniforms is absolutely inconclusive, there is no clear evidence whatsoever that uniforms improve behaviour or performance. Yet English schools present the uniform -> behaviour -> performance link as if it were scientific. It's not. But I appreciate that convincing the Brits of this is harder than convincing a taliban that there is no god.

You talk about an ideal, non-existent world where policies are the result of enlightened, detailed, evidence-driven discussions. Sometimes they may be, but they are often not. Like with the policy on banning bicycles. Or giving detentions for wearing the cheaper, 99.9% identical Asda skirt instead of the one by the official supplier. Or the head decreeing what is the maximum number of layers and level of warmth acceptable for pupils outside the school.

Simplifying, we keep going from one extreme to the other. We went from corporal punishments, to inclusive non-selective supposedly nurturing schools where behaviour and learning were terrible, to authoritarian schools with batshit crazy policies devised by tyrants who didn't get enough love from mummy and who aren't getting enough action in their private lives. Yet this is not the only way.
You can absolutely have a zero-tolerance policy on missed homework and disruptive behaviour without banning bicycles or giving detentions if it takes you 2 seconds more to get a pencil out of the case (I think Birbalisngh does this) or if you feel you need to wear an extra layer in the winter.

The most passive students will be beaten into submission and learn not to question anything - which, again, is what dictatorships and authoritarian regimes like China and Singapore really want. But other students may simply question everything: this rule is nonsense, so why should I believe your other rules are any more sensible??

@DangerousAlchemy ,

‘My Ds (now yr 12) had red cards for ridiculous things in year 9 sometimes and I just told him that life isn't fair and some teachers are overly harsh/strict and he agreed and did the 30 min detention & obviously didn't want me contacting the school.,

This!

I was often asked, when I was a form tutor, to try to get other teachers to cancel detentions, as they were ‘unfair’.

Firstly, I would ask them why they were unfair and, after discussion, they often agreed that the teacher had a point, Then we had the discussion about why they were so upset about it, as it was only a little bit of time and teachers are human and make mistakes. Again, mostly they took the point that, if they knew it was unfair, the only cost was 30 minutes and the honourable thing was just to do it. And, finally, there were a few occasions on which it was obviously an egregious mistake (teacher had completely misunderstood or recorded the wrong names) and those I generally did manage to get cancelled.

I think they were pleased that they had a sympathetic ear to discuss it with and were generally much happier after the discussions, even though the outcome was the same.

Most pupils are more concerned about the unfairness and what their parents will think than actually doing a detention. If you teach them about the system, human nature, self respect etc, they generally are pretty relaxed about the detention.

Yes I am a teacher. I have been for 25 years. I don’t know what the issue is with my daughter’s teacher but he’s very much hands off and do it yourself whilst I supervise. I know most people go into teaching to help students. I work in an sen school with challenging behaviour. I understand what children need in terms of support and this particular teacher I mention seems to not be one of the good ones.

"Discipline is designed to support the pupil." This is just an assertion, though, and not a fact that can be assumed. Parents are only going to believe it if the specific form of discipline in question seems reasonable, and is carried out by people that have some track record of credibility.

If you handed out a detention for most of the things cited by the op, you wouldn't convince anyone that you were trying to "support the pupil." You would convince them that you are a ridiculous person who does not deserve the benefit of the doubt when an actual serious issue arises.

I would teach your daughter very quickly how to play the system and not give detentions any weight at all for her own mental health. Girls especially are prone to wanting to be seen to be “good” and punitive schools seem to affect them more harshly. If she knows that you don’t think she is bad or wrong for getting silly detentions then she will be able to cope a lot more easily. They don’t matter and she shouldn’t be taught to have respect for poor rules or punishments.

Also make sure she has snacks with her so if she is forced to miss lunch then she can at least grab a bite to eat.

Why we persist with failing methods when other methods have been shown to be more effective I don’t know. And bootlicking teachers who uphold these silly philosophical authoritarian wet dreams should be ashamed of themselves.

@KillerTomato7 ,

‘You, and many other teachers, complain about how parents these days often support their children rather than cooperate with school discipline.’

And therein lies the issue. Discipline is designed to support the pupil. If you start to feel that the choice is supporting your child OR the school, you have a real problem which needs to be addressed.

You need to try to work with the school first before adopting a confrontational attitude.

School policies don’t come out of a vacuum, they are regularly discussed at SLT meetings and then need to be approved by the governing body, which is a fair amount of scrutiny. Most schools also have ‘pupil voice’ and ‘parent voice’ where they regularly ask for input from all stakeholders.

I really suggest that those genuinely interested in education and want to see how schools work and change some things apply to be a parent governor. It is easy for a middle class parent to not see potential issues with a lack of what they would consider to be strict rules.

lol that in Yr 11 you called school and got them to cancel a detention! My Ds (now yr 12) had red cards for ridiculous things in year 9 sometimes and I just told him that life isn't fair and some teachers are overly harsh/strict and he agreed and did the 30 min detention & obviously didn't want me contacting the school. They also need to learn life lessons (not in Yr 7 I agree) and if other kids are getting detentions for forgetting vital school equipment then why shouldn't your kid? It's irrelevant that's their 1st detention. Mistakes happen. All you've taught your child in this situation is that when they make a small mistake their Mum will wade in and fix it for them.

My son's school absolutely love doling out detentions.

They're usually for 20 minutes at lunchtime, or after 15:00.
So, it's just enough to be mildly annoying for the boys.

One way to prevent people from thinking it is "unfair somehow", is to not spend time alienating families with draconian policies over trivial issues, and then expect to still have any trust or credibility when you need them to "support the school" later on.

You, and many other teachers, complain about how parents these days often support their children rather than cooperate with school discipline. But it's unclear how you could possibly expect any other outcome when school administrators and teachers have established a track record, within the first days of the term, of essentially bullying students over nonissues.

Talk to her Head of Year (they may have a designated person who's in charge of this transition year too - DS's school did and he was a very caring and approachable man who genuinely wanted to settle the new yr 7s in and knew what a culture change it was). Ask about the behaviour and sanctions policy. Express concern that someone who is already coping with the big transition to secondary, and has a MH issue (tic, which should not be glossed over) is now feeling very unsure and upset at what should be a fun and exciting time as she finds her feet.

I am 100% sure this is to do with the OFSTED rating changing but what a pointless way to try and effect changes. Penalising clueless year 7s who forgot to put their name on their work??

Maybe things will ease up. I would actually be considering a different secondary though.

As I have said, I do think the OP’s daughter has been treated unfairly.

But talk of going in all guns blazing is silly and counterproductive. Some parents seem to act as if they have been given a detention themselves.

The first thing to do is to discuss it with the girl and say that they have to do the detention, regardless of whether it is unfair. Explain that it is a short period of time and not to take it personally. Then state that she will get your support and that you will discuss with the school strategies to support her.

Then email the teacher and copy to the form tutor and head of year (leave SLT out at this stage) and explain the issues. Ask to have a meeting. Hopefully, they will meet and you can put strategies in place together to support her.

Only if the above fails do you want to escalate it further. Until you try the above, you don’t really know what is going on one way or the other,

Generally, when parents work with a school, they are far more likely to get the outcome they desire.

The name on the homework is basic stuff since primary. If 10 kids forgot to put name on it then working out whose homework it is can take ages. For me it would be filed in recycling as I don’t have the time to sort it out. I also wouldn’t give detention as I need my break to go to the toilet myself and set up for next lesson.

is the detention where they help them with homework and should it be called something else?

the no lunch thing I would definitely challenge as by law adults are allowed 20 mins lunch for 6 hours work. So that in theory should apply to children as well and not allowing them to eat lunch is bad. It’s also their toilet time as they generally aren’t allowed to go in lessons so break time detentions will be a rush if the break is 15 mins and they are let out of class late.

you won’t change the policy and unless lots of parents get on board then nothing will change. I would move your kid early on so they can get settled.

Except you don't have to "toe the line," and it is up to the teacher. Society is full of policies that are not enforced to the letter, in situations where doing so would be clearly unreasonable or impractical. And generally, it is assumed that the people charged with enforcing such policies have the judgment and discretion to make these choices.

You would be making a choice by giving a good student a detention for an innocent mistake like running out of ink; you are deciding that the remote chance of your being punished is more important than the risk of demotivating a good student, and losing whatever shred of respect they may have for you. And rest assured, they would lose all respect for you. The excuse of "Following orders" never makes the person using it look any better. It just makes them look more craven.

I always find it fascinating when administrators and teachers that have spent months busily alienating students and parents, and establishing themselves as petty tyrants, then act mystified when parents refuse to "support the school," and some children refuse to go in.

Our school sounds like yours. They issued rules, the uniform is reasonably strict, they have made it seem like a miserable place to be.

They also threaten detention for all sorts of things, and I would have been terribly upset at that age to here received one too, especially for a trivial reason, or for something unavoidable, or for helping someone.

I didn’t voice to the school, when I was utterly appalled at a speech given by the Deputy Head setting out all these punishments in a welcome speech to parents and children, nor have I voiced how useless they are in sending out information, without all of the detail that you need to know, so that you have to email about three times to find out what is required, including them sending out, out of date information, because they don’t read their own emails.

I will go the Governors and complain the next time, and would advise you to do the same.

@CornishIrish ,

Have you read that link. The author has painted a very mixed picture, saying that we should emulate some aspects of Asian education but not go too far.

Very few school here have Saturday school and Singaporeans will typically go to school until 5ish and then have 2-3 hours of prep.

We are nowhere near there yet.

There has to be a sanction for lack of homework. How else would you get pupils to do it? Most schools, though, have at least one warning first. My first school had ‘minor penalties’ and 3 minors within a half term led to a detention. I think that is a sensible balance.

Again, in one of my schools, teachers weren’t allowed to give penalties to Year 7s until half term. In that half term, in my own subject, 50% of pupils did their prep, and pretty much always the same 50%. This is actually letting down the 50% of pupils who didn’t do it and there was a decent correlation (we can argue about causation) between those who failed to do it and those who did less well for quite some time.

And there is good evidence that secondary school homework helps (not primary school, though). The higher up the school, the more homework matters.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-michael-gove-should-know-about-going-to-school-in-singapore/ I’ve chosen a link from the Spectator so as not to be accused of “leftism”. I don’t think it’s a conspiracy, as it has been openly declared to be the point.

Chinese and Singaporean friends have come to the UK specifically to give their children a happier education and are dismayed that we would emulate a system which leads to really stressed and unhappy childhoods.

Ours don't give out detentions for homework anymore, they seem to give them for everything else though, getting lost when you've only been there a week, your tie not being quite central, being late because the teacher on the gate held you up because of your ear rings (he doesn't actually have any 🙄)

@celticprincess ,

Are you a teacher?

I was and I assure you I always helped with the work.

Why would the teacher be daft? Most teachers go into teaching for the right reasons, to help children succeed in life.

Now, many get disillusioned, caught between awful pupil behaviour, entitled patent behaviour, administrative burden and bullying SLT, and a few do get into it for the power (but they are a tiny minority). But the majority will go above and beyond to support pupils.

I have been in school until 8PM helping a panicking A level student the day before their exam. And I am far from unique. The vast majority of teachers put pupil welfare first, and will go above and beyond for their pupils.

She didn't complete her homework; at any point in the week did she find the teacher who set it and ask for clarification?
And as you aren't physically in school with your child you don't know if the other examples are correct or not. Didn't put the name could be didn't do the work at all. Was helping another year 7 could be pissing about in the corridor!

You're not that naive to believe everything your daughter says are you?

And to the poster who suggests detention is like 1:2 free tutoring. It’s not. The teacher sits and watches the child completing the work. They don’t helps. Often they’re are several kids. And teachers are paid for so many hours (1265) a year and I suspect the detention falls within this time. If not then the teacher is daft to be stating back this extra time. Many are at lunch times as well and often teachers get 30 minutes unpaid lunch within the school 1 hour lunch period so them doing a half hour detention is within their hours. Not always. Many teachers do work more hours.

@CornishIrish ,

The idea that there is some conspiracy to get schools to create ‘good’ workers is absolute rubbish. Anyone who has done a PGCE will know that teachers are taught research-based methods to both educationally and emotionally support pupils.

Now, some of that research is dodgy (I think educational research is generally quite poor) and some schools get it wrong but none of a PGCE is about creating good obedient workers.

The rise of strict schools is a backlash from the very permissive ones which failed pupils in other ways. We always go in circles from permissive to strict (or at least we have in the last 50 years),

There is also a major issue with parenting. A lot of parents just can’t be bothered to parent effectively and see it as the school’s job.

That is insane, that is far too draconian. Getting a detention for being kind is shocking. I would be complaining if that was my child.

I’d be speaking to the school. Those are stupids reasons for a detention. My DD is statistic and struggles with people not following rules but being for punished for trying something and getting it wrong is just ridiculous. She was threatened with detention for something similar and I was fuming. She didn’t understand her homework and I couldn’t help her (I’m a teacher but GCSE physics is not my bag). She tried asking for help a few times and the teacher wasn’t supportive. She went to homework club and non of the staff running the homework club could help with that piece of homework. He read out a list of people who hadn’t completed homework to the right standard (100% correct) and her name was on the list. It’s in her pupil passport that she’s not to have detentions because they have the wrong effect and she’s not a naughty child, never been in trouble and is a stickler to the rules. She didn’t go to the detention as she knows she doesn’t need to bit the next day he told her off 1:1 and said she still owed a detention. She then left the class and went to see the pastoral person as she was confused as to why her support plan wasn’t being followed. I then had to contact the sendco to have words. I explained she’s not naughty for not understanding something and giving a detention is not going to help her get it right. She ended up staying after school for homework club with the sendco who is a physics teacher so she could get some help with where she was struggling and the sendco had to have a word with the teacher. She absolutely stresses now over this subject and the homework that is set.

There are parents on the group chat complaining about detentions but many of them are for actual behaviour issues but those teachers who are punishing for not understanding a subject are out of line.

@Annio82 ,

I am not really sure that your reply to my post disagrees with it.

If you see my 3rd para, I explicitly state that some pupils are disorganised because they are lazy and others because they need help.

And I also suggested that support for disorganisation/lack of prep should be called something other than detention.