how common are detentions at secondary?

My problem with zero tolerance behaviour policies (I'm a teacher and transition lead/SENDCo) is that there's no light and shade.

The justice system in this country has punishments of varying degrees of severity based on the crime. A detention for misunderstanding homework is ridiculous, not so much for disrupting a lesson.

The other thing I've noticed for Year 7 is that some subjects set big homeworks all the time (I'm looking at you DT) - the amount of DT homework has massively outweighed maths and English. This is plainly nonsensical and I'm about to bring it up with the deputy head.

@Newbutoldfather
So you do not have any answers at all? I see. Thank you for confirming.

"You still haven’t explained why you think it is unacceptable for a teacher to wear a coat when on duty, but confiscate coats from transitioning pupils. Care to reply?"

??? I have replied multiple times: it is not for the school to determine the maximum level of acceptable warmth.

See, one of the big differences is that I can explain why I support the policies I support. You cannot.
I support punishing disruptive behaviour, because disruptive behaviour in class makes it harder for everyone to learn.
I support punishing lateness because it is important that pupils learn to stick to the rules.
I support banning mobiles because otherwise students glue themselves to the screens instead of socialising, and plenty of studies have linked this to mental health issues.

Why on earth do you think a school should ban bicycles, dictate the maximum level of acceptable warmth, force students to talk standing up with their arms crossed (a stupid, nonsensical thing they must unlearn after graduation)? Again, your answer has always been: deafening silence.

You question what right I have to question the headteachers. Well, as a parent considering schools for their children, and as a taxpayer with a brain, I have every right. Being a teacher or a headteacher does not make you an infallible expert. The mere fact that so many teachers and headteachers disagree with these methods suggests the matter is not clear cut at all. Also, in the past we would have had similar conversations with headteachers convinced that corporal punishments or boarding schools at an early age were wonderful things, whereas now we know better. So history is full of opinionated teachers who were, quite simply, wrong.

I would welcome the input of experts, who have studied the matter scientifically, but this means experts who can back up their claims, not opinionated egotistic headteachers who have strong opinions they don't feel the need to justify. This is why I asked you, when you said that many psychologists disagree with me, where I can find these studies on how punishing lateness missed homework etc isn't enough, and those extremes would instead be necessary. The answer: again, deafening silence.

It saddens me that people with zero critical skills and zero ability to question and ponder what they are told can vote. I can only hope your children will have more critical thinking skills.

"You picked an egregiously bad example there of a wannabe music star parent putting his poor son in a blue designer puffa jacket (when the school coat was black) at 3x the price of the uniform coat. The school explained the options to create greater warmth"
I agree the choice of coat was a poor one in that case, but the school never allowed students to wear additional layers. This is absurd, petty, capricious; it's a pervasive control typical of cults and dictatorships.

You say that, if you lived in an estate in Wembley, you'd send your child to Micaela. Again, like I explained, that is the wrong comparison. I myself admitted that Micaela will be better than a failing comp. That's not the question; the question is: are those extremes needed? Are the only possible alternatives a failing comp with no discipline and Micaela? The answers are, of course: no and no. It's like asking if you'd rather your child joined a gang or the military. Of course I'd say the military. But why on earth should those be the only choices?

If you are in the UK then yes it’s become normal to give detentions for petty reasons.
it’s probably because they want it to look like they are doing something and they are not able to control the badly behaved kids so they just use the good kids as bait. Speak to head of year so they know you are not in agreement with their pettiness.

Been teaching for 19 years. No name on work is a common occurrence. I usually hand them back and then say something along the lines of ‘if you handed it in and didn’t get it back then you must be one of the muppets who doesn’t know their own name!’ The kids come to the front and say something along the lines of ‘oops sorry miss’ and show me which one is theirs so I can write the mark in my mark book. It’s all very light hearted, the kids know ‘muppet’ is the term I use for ‘made a silly mistake that’s no big deal.’ If got irritated every time it happened I’d some most of my life irritated. I mostly teach A level these days and the 6th form are worse than the year 7’s for it!

@ParentOfOne ,

You seem to think that you have every right to quiz me, but don’t want to answer any awkward questions that I ask you.

You still haven’t explained why you think it is unacceptable for a teacher to wear a coat when on duty, but confiscate coats from transitioning pupils. Care to reply?

‘I am still waiting for an explanation why being strict and punishing lateness, mobile phones, disruptive behaviour etc isn't enough, and why it would be necessary to go to the extremes of banning bicycles, giving detentions for period pain, prohibiting pupils from wearing warmer clothes, forcing them to talk standing up with their arms crossed (which they should unlearn after graduation), etc.’

Each school has a whole raft of behaviour management policies. It is incredibly easy for someone to go through them and, on a purely subjective manner, say this one is ‘too strict’ or another one ‘isn’t strict enough’. No two people or two schools will agree that somewhere else has got it 100% right.

Banning bicycles seems weird, I would disagree with it.

We have already discussed (at great length) the wearing of ‘warmer clothes’. You picked an egregiously bad example there of a wannabe music star parent putting his poor son in a blue designer puffa jacket (when the school coat was black) at 3x the price of the uniform coat. The school explained the options to create greater warmth.

Never heard of giving a detention for period pain. I would bet there is an awful lot more to that one!

And, we have also discussed Michaela Community School at length. It does seem incredibly strict but, objectively, judging both by results and pupil and parent voice, it is successful. I wouldn’t send my children there as I am fortunate enough to be wealthy and have a choice of leafy state schools or the private sector. But, if I lived in an estate in Wembley where gang violence was an issue, I would be choosing it like a shot. It offers genuine social mobility, a very rare thing these days.

I have also asked you why you feel you can expertly comment on school behaviour policy, explaining that I have had a professional career, a teaching career and been a school governor. Something else that you seem to not want to respond to.

@Newbutoldfather I am still waiting for an explanation why being strict and punishing lateness, mobile phones, disruptive behaviour etc isn't enough, and why it would be necessary to go to the extremes of banning bicycles, giving detentions for period pain, prohibiting pupils from wearing warmer clothes, forcing them to talk standing up with their arms crossed (which they should unlearn after graduation), etc.

I shall also be looking forward to the scientific literature of the psychology and education experts who have studied why being strict isn't enough and why we need these extremes.

If the answer continues to be a deafening silence, I might even conclude that you have no answer at all. But I'm sure that's not the case.

Thank you.

and what if the teacher didn’t have a point? Did you ever concede?

also, if we’re giving teachers the benefit of the doubt that they’re human and make mistakes, why are we expecting children to be better than their ‘responsible adults’?

Seriously if this is continuing move her quickly. It won’t get better and she’ll find it easier to make friends in a new school before people have got too tight. Most importantly, this will ruin her happiness and desire to learn. Show her you believe in and back her. Discipline is important but detentions for such barmy reasons are just cruel.

I have just completed a degree level professional course (I am a teacher) and the people who marked my work had no idea whose work it was. I had to submit everything with a unique number (not my student ID number!) that only the administrative staff in the registry would be able to link back to me.

I’ve been teaching in secondary schools for 20 years and have marked plenty of unnamed work. Of course it’s not impossible to do so. Would never have even occurred to me to finish a student for forgetting their name.

I started off curious to learn and motivated by subject interest.

The majority of teachers even in the late 1980s and1990s quickly drummed that out of you.

Secondary schools have always failed so many people and absenteeism has always been a huge problem. It has only got worse recently, not the least because schools are ridiculously large now.

Utter rubbish.

@rainfallpurevividcat ,

‘IMO it's using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. If 90% are well behaved, why penalise them for minor stuff? To the point that it causes the more sensitive and any with SEN to not be able to learn as well or even a complete phobia of school, and 20% of 15 year olds to have a lot of absence from school.’

The problem is that, in most schools in this country, 90% aren’t well behaved, in some those proportions are reversed.

I don’t think that you can argue absenteeism is due to harsh schools. If you go back to a time of much harsher schooling, absenteeism wasn’t a problem.

Covid and making it seem as if school were optional seem to be behind the current spike. In fact, in the primary where I was governor, it was only when significant sanctions were put in place, especially for parents (calling home, visiting, eventually fines) that the head made significant inroads into absenteeism.

‘Clearly this approach is not working for so many children. I don't think it works for teachers either. It seems there is so little professionalism or autonomy. They are teaching to scripts and box ticking. And are leaving in droves.’

This really isn’t a major cause that teachers cite for leaving. The overriding cause is workload, but pupil behaviour is also cited by many.

Harsh schools are a response to deeper societal problems including terrible parenting with children not taught the basics of living in society and it thus being left to schools to sort out the problems.

Don’t you think it would be a dream for any teacher to walk into a classroom of polite pupils genuinely curious to learn and motivated by subject interest? If classrooms were like that, no one would give a damn about trivia like coats or lack of pens!

But, in the real world, they aren’t, so schools need to put in behaviour management policies. Now some of these might appear harsh (and some are) but, until you have been to a school and observed both lessons and out of classroom behaviour, it is hard to tell.

IMO it's using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. If 90% are well behaved, why penalise them for minor stuff? To the point that it causes the more sensitive and any with SEN to not be able to learn as well or even a complete phobia of school, and 20% of 15 year olds to have a lot of absence from school. DD2 never disrupted a class in her life and has tons of potential, maybe not in the top 20% of learners but certainly in the top third.

Clearly this approach is not working for so many children. I don't think it works for teachers either. It seems there is so little professionalism or autonomy. They are teaching to scripts and box ticking. And are leaving in droves.

We are not the ones missing the point.
You are comparing apples to oranges.

Missing the point entirely. The PP claimed one cannot give meaningful feedback unless they know who wrote homework. I am saying that anonymous work is a common practice in another setting and never stopped anyone from giving meaningful feedback.
I am not saying work should be submitted without a name, just that the name is not a key factor for feedback. The content of work is.

It isn’t really anonymous. It has the student’s unique ID number on it in place of a name.

PS thank you for apologising on the skirt misunderstanding, I appreciate that

@Newbutoldfather I see you still fail to address my key point: what would be the need to be so extreme? Why can't a school apply a zero tolerance policy against disruptive behaviour lateness missed homework etc, but without giving detention for period pain riding bicycles wearing a warmer coat etc? Why? Why? Again, your answer has been: deafening silence.

On the coats, you are conflating two separate incidents:

• a school dictated that only the school coats and the school micro fleece could be worn, and punished a pupil wearing a warmer coat. Why? Why can't they allow any black or dark navy winter coat with minimal logos, like many schools do? Why cannot they allow any intermediate black or dark navy layer of a different warmth? Your only answer was that he shouldn't have needed anything warmer. But it's not for you or the school to dictate the maximum level of acceptable warmth! We are all different! I wear a rolled up shirt while my partner wears a down jacket. Yes we are adults different rules yada yada yad but what remains the same is that human physiology means we all perceive temperature differently. What is achieved by dictating the maximum level of acceptable warmth? Can you answer with anything other than deafening silence?
• another school dictated that coats cannot be worn in the courtyard. I find it crazy that teachers wearing coats confiscated students' coats. Even if the teachers stand there while the students are in transit, it is not for the school to dictate the maximum level of warmth.

Why does Micaela school force students to talk standing up with their arms crossed, a nonsensical cultish thing they must unlearn after graduation? Can you answer with anything other than deafening silence?

Do I really think you could prevent people from speaking out? What you or I think is irrelevant : it happens in reality. The world is full of cases of various severity where people who suffered mistreatment didn't speak up for many many many years. We go from outiright sexual abuse to bullying to general mistreatment. Like for centuries boarding schools were considered normal, whereas now psychologists have been more critical and warning about the impact it can have on the mental health of children, especially if they board at a very young age.

When I choose an employer, I am always mindful that the industry is full of bad apples and of people who ended up with nervous breakdowns. I don't assume : hey they seemed nice and happy, and I haven't found anything bad online, so there cannot be any problem.

This doesn't mean comparing Micaela School to a stalinist regime, although some cultish mind control similarities do exist. It means applying critical thinking and appreciating that the truth is hard to uncover.

Again, there are a gazillion reasons why people don't speak up. Do you really need me to list them for you? You and other people have engaged in character assassination of the parent who bought a warmer coat for his child. The Internet is a parmenanet record - speaking up can hinder future job prospects. Some people just cannot cope with the publicity. Loads and loads of reasons.

On the psychologists : can you point me to this literature? Again, remember I am all for disicpline, but not for the extremes. There is plenty of literature on the pervasive control imposed by cults on the most banal aspects of a person's life. Are there studies on how and why punishing lateness disruptive behaviour etc isn't enough, and schools must dictate the maximum level of acceptable warmth, ban bicycles give detentions for period pain etc? If so, I would love to learn more. Can you share such studies? Thank you!

@ParentOfOne ,

I will take your post at face value and assume you genuinely want to engage in a discussion.

‘you fabricated stuff and never apologised, eg you said I wanted girls to wear the same skirts as their teachers, which I had never said’

Having looked over your first post about skirts, I did misread it and, for that, I apologise. However, your coat comment still seems to imply that you think teachers and pupils should obey the same rules. I explained why that was totally inappropriate, and yet you never came back. Would you care to comment now that I have explained that teachers need to stand still on duty whereas pupils are transitioning?

‘you demonstrated either naivety or bad faith when you took that press article at face value; like** said, it's like concluding that Stalin was an enlightened leader because the people you met in your trip to Moscow seemed happy’

To compare a school to Stalinist Russia is beyond ridiculous. It is you who are being incredibly naive here, or disingenuous (which is it?). Do you really think you could prevent an entire student body and staff body from speaking out, including pupils who have long left and are now at university, and staff who have long ago moved on or retired?

The alternative, of course, would puncture your deep cognitive bias about what a good school should be and so you aren’t even able to consider it.

‘you demonstrated lack of critical thinking because you ignored my point on the professional psychologist commenting on the lasting damage that those harsh methods can cause to the mental health of a person, but added that you googled it, but couldn't find much about unhappy students at Micaela.’

This is risible. One psychologist casually commenting on one thing that happens at the school?! What do you want me to comment? If you read any educational literature you will see lots of ‘professional’ psychologists arguing diametrically opposite points. This pop psychologist comment on a tiny aspect of a school just isn’t worthy of comment.

And, importantly, I have been open about my background and why I feel able to comment. Have you? Would you like to explain what gives you the right to pontificate so vehemently about educational methodology?

(Of course, on an anonymous forum, anyone can lie but, if you work in a profession, you can easily distinguish the bluffers from those with genuine experience).

@Newbutoldfather Lots of words, bolds and ad hominem attacks, calling me a troll rather than addressing the substance of my posts. However, few links and precise evidenced ideas.

Are you for real?

I have asked a gazillion times why those extremes would be needed. Why can't a school, like many schools do, be very strict and have a zero-excuse policy in punishing lateness, missed homework, disruption etc, but without going so far as giving detention to girls in period pain, preventing pupils from wearing a warmer coat, banning bicycles, forcing them to talk standing up with their arms crossed, etc.

I asked a gazillion times and your answer has always been deafening silence!!

I attacked you because:

• you fabricated stuff and never apologised, eg you said I wanted girls to wear the same skirts as their teachers, which I had never said
• you demonstrated either naivety or bad faith when you took that press article at face value; like @KillerTomato7 said, it's like concluding that Stalin was an enlightened leader because the people you met in your trip to Moscow seemed happy
• you demonstrated lack of critical thinking because you ignored my point on the professional psychologist commenting on the lasting damage that those harsh methods can cause to the mental health of a person, but added that you googled it, but couldn't find much about unhappy students at Micaela.

@caringcarer ,

‘If I handed out a few at the beginning of term and made it clear why they had them I found I rarely had to hand them out after the first half term as students by then knew what not to do and knew they would not get away with poor behaviour.’

That was pretty much what I did too.

I gave detentions very rarely, maybe a couple a term. And I always have a warning first (unless they were rude to me or any violence). But I always explained and always followed through.

I learned that lesson in my first year. I was really reluctant to give detentions and got eaten alive (in an exclusive girls private school!). I mentored a young(ish) second career teacher last year and she started off making the same mistake; she had zero control of the class, although, with help, she got there in the end.

It is the group dynamic. You can have a class of 24 lovely pupils individually but, as a group, they need to see that the teacher is in charge.

@KillerTomato7 ,

‘To be honest, his posts smack of well-mannered trolling in the way that his arguments seem deliberately slippery and difficult to pin down. When backed into a logical corner, he squirms out of it by fixating on extraneous details. He avoids addressing any of the obvious points you raise, in favor of focusing on cherry-picked, out of context phrases. He expects his own blanket assertions to stand unchallenged, while rejecting your simple statements of common sense.’

That paragraph far more refers to your posts and @ParentOfOne’s posts. Lots of words, bolds and ad hominem attacks, calling me a troll rather than addressing the substance of my posts. However, few links and precise evidenced ideas.

OTOH, I have supplied clear examples from my own teaching, my time as a school governor, my PGCE and linked to articles and suggested they are food for thought, and always said where my expertise began and ended (note that I merely said we should look for evidence on Michaela and not jump to conclusions).

The reason my arguments are ‘slippery and difficult to pin down’ is something called nuance. Education isn’t like Physics, which I taught, where there is one right answer. What works in one school might not work in another and, even, sometimes you have to be strict with one class and can be very relaxed with an identical looking one, merely due to pupil dynamics.

My contributions are closer to the majority of other teachers who have posted. No, not all, teachers are a diverse group of people. But, what we have in common is understanding how to manage groups of teenagers, which is very different from groups of well educated adults, a job I know as I did it in my time in finance.

I was a secondary teacher for almost 25 years and would not have given detentions for minor reasons like not putting their name on their work and other examples you gave. I gave detentions for not doing/handing in 2 pieces of homework in a row. For misbehaving in class and not getting their work done because of choosing to mess about or distract other learners, as a form tutor we had to give detentions for persistent lateness to school or for not arriving in school in full school uniform without either permission and/or a reasonable excuse. If I handed out a few at the beginning of term and made it clear why they had them I found I rarely had to hand them out after the first half term as students by then knew what not to do and knew they would not get away with poor behaviour.

His entire mindset is an illustration of how Stalin managed to convince a subset of leftist “intellectuals” that his regime was actually the latest in progressive governance. After all, he’d given them a guided tour, and all of the Soviet people they’d spoken to seemed happy.

To be honest, his posts smack of well-mannered trolling in the way that his arguments seem deliberately slippery and difficult to pin down. When backed into a logical corner, he squirms out of it by fixating on extraneous details. He avoids addressing any of the obvious points you raise, in favor of focusing on cherry-picked, out of context phrases. He expects his own blanket assertions to stand unchallenged, while rejecting your simple statements of common sense.

These are tactics you use when you want to avoid giving ground at any cost, or simply want to extend an argument for its own sake.

@Newbutoldfather
"So, as opposed to my limited and open minded research"
??? You didn't do 'limited and open-minded research". You read an article where a journalist, after visiting the school and meeting a few students, concluded they seem happy, and you took it at face value. You also concluded that you googling for unhappy students at Micaela and not finding anything meant something. You neglected to consider, whether for naivety or bad faith I don't know, all the gazillion reasons why these 'conclusions' and this line of thought may mean absolutely nothing.

"Why don’t you supply some evidence that Michaela isn’t doing a good job for its demographic?"
You are the champion of putting words into my mouth (e.g. the skirt thing - I never said girls should wear the same skirts as their teachers, I don't know where you got that).
I never said your highlighted words. In fact, I said it out load that I have no doubt that, for most students and for those who don't have a choice, Micaela is better than a failing comp with no discipline.

Again, the key point is not that - the key point is that this is not the only alternative.
The key point is that you can and should be absolutely strict and punish lateness, missed homework, disruptive behaviour etc, because otherwise the environment is chaotic and not conducive to learning. But there is no need whatsoever to reach these extremes. None at all. If you disagree, can you please explain why?

I made the example of Micaela students forced to speak while standing up with their arms crossed so they don't fidget. This is insane: it punishes and alienates the neurodiverse and all those who need to fidget but aren't disruptive; it's an idiotic, cultish thing with no scientific basis, which must in fact be unlearnt upon graduation, because crossing arms signals distance.

Please, please, please, can someone explain why on Earth this cultish nonsense would be required?

Birbalsingh and the like love to say we don't have to send our children there. We choose to. But that's bullshit. First of all, not every family has an unlimited choice of secondary. Secondly, we as taxpayers do not have the choice not to fund these schools.
These academies free schools etc get funding from the State, but who are they accountable to and how?
They would love us to think that their incredibly harsh approach is the one and only way to create an environment conducive to learning, but who are they accountable to and who will call out their bullshit?

And don't give me the usual "middle class families don't understand what's needed in deprived environments". I'm not saying that Micaela should teach the same way as Eton. I'm saying there is no proven reason to be so harsh.

Oh, and if we want to talk about research and prejudice, talking to a professional psychologist about the impact that these harsh and authoritarian environments can have on the mental health of young people is, I dare say, a tad more scientific than your 'research'.