how common are detentions at secondary?

Another case of schools (oh, what a surprise, this is an academy, too) coming up with batshit crazy policies is this one requiring a medical certificate for period pain, otherwise it will be recorded as an unauthorised absence. Because NHS GPs are not already overstretched, so this is an intelligent use of everyone's time.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cly4zd8xp74o

(from the BBC, not the daily fail)

I would now expect all the bootlickers to explain why this is a sensible policy and why I shouldn't dare criticise it.

That's on your English department! Maths and English are both supposed to set one a week at my school.

Not more than English, which also covers two subjects (Language and Literature) in the same time frame, yet sets substantially less homework.

The thing about gove is that all subject curriculums increase under his extremely poor running of schools.
he took out a huge amount of subjects that were separate and many of the vocational options and slammed them together giving all areas a reduction in time to teach another 1/3 to 1/2 more content.
nobody at government level thought about how this was going to be fitted in to the time that we have available.

Maths content/difficulty also increased under Gove so there are a lot of schools who used to offer Further Maths/Additional Maths to top set Y11 don't anymore as they have enough challenge with the new content and pushing for a grade 9.

That said, of course there are still very bright kids who can just cruise it. Fewer 9s than A*s to go around though.

I am aware that the Govian science GCSE is far too overstuffed to teach in the time allocated and that science departments end up teaching right up to the wire or not completing the course. You might even look with envy at maths departments who stop teaching new content and move onto revision well before exams - but that's not, in the vast majority of cases, because we've taught the entire course to them, but because we make a decision to stop teaching them new stuff. We have to spend time every year explaining to kids why they are going to be faced with questions on the paper that they haven't been taught and that this is deliberate. My class last year only were expected to be able to answer questions 'up to the staples' in the middle of the paper and the rest they shouldn't worry about.

So you are perfectly within your rights to complain about how science don't have enough time to teach all the content, but trying to compare to maths as a 'single GCSE' for teaching time doesn't really work, because it's not a single GCSE, and schools will definitely bear that in mind when timetabling!

Definitely make your thoughts known about the science curriculum to the new curriculum review panel https://www.gov.uk/government/news/national-conversation-on-curriculum-begins
You won't be the only one.

@noblegiraffe ,

A spirited defence!

I half agree.

The problem with maths is that it is an easy single GCSE if you have aptitude, and an awful lot of work if you try to ‘learn’ it.

In the good old days, it was an easy one to take at 15, and the odd pupil even got away with doing it at 14.

Several in my school (when I was a child, not that I taught in), completed all the content by Year 10 and moved on to AO maths in Year 11, which was probably somewhere between further maths today and an AS level.

But Physics also has an awful lot of content, a lot which has to be learned, and precious little learning time for triple award in most schools.

No offence meant, it is just a thought.
I know from converting to Maths as a subject the depth that it has to go into.
But Maths was much easier to set homework for due to the availability of the websites, than my other subject.

Because maths actually has enough content to cover 2 GCSEs and counts as two GCSEs in the Progress 8 measure as a result. There have been lots of calls over the years to make maths two GCSEs and Labour piloted this back before 2010. Gove then came in and binned the pilot because it was a Labour project and decided that maths would be kept as one GCSE but to acknowledge the 'weight' of the qualification, said that it would count for two for accountability measures. Wales actually went the route of making maths two GCSEs (but I think they're going to revert).

The learning hours thing is a bit of a misdirection as unlike other subjects where you might be expected to teach the whole syllabus to all pupils in KS4, in maths only the very top students actually learn everything. It's more of a 12 year course than a two year one.

@noblegiraffe ,

Not to get into interdepartmental arguments, but how come in both Physics and Maths, according to OCR (to take an example), the qualification 120-140 learning hours, Maths gets 1.5x (at least) the contact time, and yet needs to set more homework?

We teach the kids more often than other subjects.

@FrippEnos ,

I think that is a part of it. Maths can mostly be marked in class or by websites, at least up to GCSE. I have to admit, with my own children’s homework, I am impressed how good some of the automatic marking is, even when the workings are partial!

But I think it is more fundamental. Most Maths teachers believe Maths is the most important subject. And with the majority of SLTs being non-mathematical (no hides why!) they don’t feel that they can gain say the Maths department.

I always told my pupils to prioritise Maths and English (and their A Level subjects) as most employers want evidence that you can both problem solve and communicate, but there is a balance to be had and Maths departments (in general) totally take the piss (to put it bluntly)!

Hi OP, sorry I have arrived late to this thread, ironically most detentions at my school are given for lateness both to school and lessons.
I noticed your child is at Bottisham, I attended Comberton as a student back in the day, I don't get how Bottisham are doing dentions at all! We never had them because teachers don't work at lunchtime and we had no non teaching pastoral staff. And we didn't have them after school because of the school buses home.
I'm not sure what our behaviour system was, just attending the school was punishment enough for me!

Having thought some more on this.
I find myself wondering if the amount of homework from what seems to be mainly maths departments is due to them being one of the few (if not only subject) that has dedicated websites where you can set homework with less effort than other subjects, it is marked automatically and is easy to see who has or hasn't done it.

I'm fascinated to hear this as the Maths department in my school has a similar reputation.

We have a whole school policy of not setting "next day" homeworks which the Maths department ignores because they say it's not homework, it's just "finishing work not done in class". Even the very best and brightest are not completing the tasks set in that time.

The end result is that the homeworks I set in English and give a week to complete (plus additional time in class) are not being finished because pupils are prioritising their Maths every night, as you could feasibly get a detention for three missed Maths homeworks in one week, whilst in English it could take weeks or even months to accrue hit three missed deadlines.

BarkLife

The DT homework is A4 pages with annotated designs. DS1 is in Y7 and I had to help him in order to cut it down to an hour's work.

Yeah, that is far to much for year 7.
I would think that they are trying to train them in KS4 requirements.
But you have to walk before you can run.

I've been teaching 20 years and, apart from maths/reading, I can't see the point of homework at KS3. Some kids will overdo it, some won't do it at all, and it just entrenches inequality.

I am torn with KS3 homework, lots of schools force teachers to give it out and it serves no purpose. Sometimes it can be of benefit if it is relevant to the subject and extends the pupils learning.

With DT, it is often used as training for NEA, organisation and independence, which is beneficial once the pupils understand what they are doing.

@FrippEnos

The DT homework is A4 pages with annotated designs. DS1 is in Y7 and I had to help him in order to cut it down to an hour's work.

I've been teaching 20 years and, apart from maths/reading, I can't see the point of homework at KS3. Some kids will overdo it, some won't do it at all, and it just entrenches inequality.

In both the schools I worked, it was the Maths department that was the issue. They saw the SLT homework guidance as a minimum amount rather than a recommended amount, and just set lots, all the time.

An example was my Physics A level set not completing the past paper I had set them over the Easter hols as the Maths department had set them 3 (!) complete past papers (about 15 hours work minimum) in addition to revision.

And they started in Year 7 setting two big preps a week, with really harsh sanctions if not completed.

Of course, with a massive amount of teaching time, and setting at least twice the recommended prep, they got good results.

I suspect other Science teachers will concur that Maths departments seem to obey different rules than the rest of the school. (And I studied mathematical Physics at uni, so I love maths). But departments need to be fair and abide by the guidelines. Parental feedback is really useful here.

@ParentOfOne ,

‘Nice verbal gymnastics! I was questioning behaviour which happened outdoors. But, hey, do keep clutching at straws if it makes you feel better.’

Nope. This answer just shows you have no idea what schools or pupils are like. They will know the rules and try to push the limits.

What about a cold poorly heated classroom, coats or not?

Suffice it to say that teaching isn’t Maths, there is no perfect set of rules for all schools, all teachers etc

This is why teachers and schools are advised to become reflective practitioners (you might want to read some Schoen here).

‘Unfortunately mumsnet does not have a block function, but rest assured I will not waste any more time with you.’

Unless you are 13 years old, you don’t need a block function to ignore someone, but debating with you is like wading through treacle, so we can finally agree on something , let’s leave it alone and stop boring everyone else.

I am genuinely curious as to what homework the DT department is setting.
Could you give an example?
One school; that I worked at went through a phase of setting 5 week homework projects (actually taken from the humanities department), that were reviewed every couple of weeks. they looked massive but were designed with week 1, week 2 etc.
Of course what actually happened was that many pupils either didn't do the homework, did it at the last minute or the parents "helped" with the projects.
In the end we ditched them because of the hassle they caused at home and at school.

@Newbutoldfather
"You did not exclude indoors, ergo you included it."
Nice verbal gymnastics! I was questioning behaviour which happened outdoors. But, hey, do keep clutching at straws if it makes you feel better.

Asinine question, not worthy of an answer.
Can you imagine the title of the paper ‘Investigation of the efficacy of harsh methods in schooling’?!
??? I said I talked to a psychologist who explained all the damage that extreme harsh environments can cause, and how she actually treats patients who were victims of that when young.
You replied that many other psychologists disagree.
I asked you where the evidence is. You dodge the question. I ask it again. You label it 'an asinine question, not worthy of an answer'

Unfortunately mumsnet does not have a block function, but rest assured I will not waste any more time with you.

@ParentOfOne ,

Your reading comprehension skills are shocking!

‘I have replied multiple times: it is not for the school to determine the maximum level of acceptable warmth.’

Your words, undeniably. You did not exclude indoors, ergo you included it. So puffa jackets in the classroom, to you, are acceptable as ‘it is not up to the school to determine the maximum level of acceptable warmth’.

‘This doesn't mean that schools should be above the law, nor unaccountable to anyone, especially if they are funded by the State.’

They aren’t. Read the Free School and Academy Handbook. A proposal to set up a school is extremely detailed, it takes months to put together, and to get funding it needs to accept a raft of standards. And it is still subject to OFSTED inspection.

You could have found that out if you did a little research.

‘I am also still waiting for you to share all the scientific studies you implied support these extremely harsh methods. Why have you not mentioned a single one? Surely it's not because they don't exist, right? In your own time - thank you very much.’

Asinine question, not worthy of an answer.

Can you imagine the title of the paper ‘Investigation of the efficacy of harsh methods in schooling’?!

One woman’s harsh is another woman’s way too soft. It is entirely subjective.

Try teaching someone with a massive puffa jacket on in class [...]
Or try wearing a North Face coat to a business meeting and see what your boss says.

@Newbutoldfather Tell me, which is it: bad faith or poor text comprehension skills? No one ever talked about wearing huge puffy jackets indoors. It'd outdoor clothing we were talking about. Oh, and by the way, I have attended plenty of meetings, including board meetings, where some persons would take their jackets off and remain with just shirts, while others would wear a jacket with a wool or down layer underneath, as they were feeling cold. No one ever bat an eyelid.

Schools are package deals.
This doesn't mean that schools should be above the law, nor unaccountable to anyone, especially if they are funded by the State.
By your logic, could a religious group set up a school where they teach that other religions are evil? Could a pressure group set up a school where they ban people from certain countries or ethnicities? Could another group set up a school with corporal punishments? Of course not! Because these things are patently illegal and schools are not above the law. However, there needs to be a way to appeal and to hold the schools accountable which doesn't involve spending tens of thousands of pounds to take them to court.

I am also still waiting for you to share all the scientific studies you implied support these extremely harsh methods. Why have you not mentioned a single one? Surely it's not because they don't exist, right? In your own time - thank you very much.

@ParentOfOne ,

‘So you do not have any answers at all? I see. Thank you for confirming.’

Answered all your questions. You should try actually reading my posts.

‘??? I have replied multiple times: it is not for the school to determine the maximum level of acceptable warmth.’

I do find this quite amusing. Try teaching someone with a massive puffa jacket on in class, and maybe a scarf and gloves. I have, and they use your argument to justify why they need them (this in a classroom where I am teaching in a shirt and tie without a jacket).

Or try wearing a North Face coat to a business meeting and see what your boss says.

‘Why on earth do you think a school should ban bicycles, dictate the maximum level of acceptable warmth, force students to talk standing up with their arms crossed (a stupid, nonsensical thing they must unlearn after graduation)? Again, your answer has always been: deafening silence.’

Answered-see above.

By the way people graduate from university. They finish school.

‘You say that, if you lived in an estate in Wembley, you'd send your child to Micaela. Again, like I explained, that is the wrong comparison. I myself admitted that Micaela will be better than a failing comp. That's not the question; the question is: are those extremes needed? Are the only possible alternatives a failing comp with no discipline and Micaela? The answers are, of course: no and no. It's like asking if you'd rather your child joined a gang or the military. Of course I'd say the military. But why on earth should those be the only choices?’

Schools are package deals. If you can’t cope with the package, you are welcome to home school or set up a free school (with government funding) with like minded individuals. I have been a part of that process.

You are also welcome to become a school governor (I have) and work with the school, Schools review their behaviour management policies regularly and tweak them.

But you prefer to read biased accounts in the popular press and repeatedly write the same bland arguments.

‘It saddens me that people with zero critical skills and zero ability to question and ponder what they are told can vote. I can only hope your children will have more critical thinking skills.’

Agreed. But I don’t think we have the same person in mind!

Some schools are ridiculously strict, but I think it can be normal to get a few warnings or detention when you first start. My dd got a few warnings and a couple of detentions her first year at secondary because she would forget a folder or her homework etc. But by third term she learned and since then nothing. She has learned to be more responsible from it. She was used to her previous school, where it was fine if you forgot things or did not bring the homework. It does seem like your dd school is extremely strict and if it is making her upset or anxious, I would have a word with the school.