Music lessons are a waste of time for most kids

Ahaha love it! Of course many children hate practising and of course MN parents won't admit it. But your OP is self contradicting - it's mostly JD parents think about solo career for their children, but their offspring DO have grade 8 by 8 😂

I don't think MC parents at local music schools have such ambitions. There is no money in music and MC usually value moneyed careers.

I know quite a few children who achieved grade 8 by 8 or 9. Are you calling them all "abnormal"? That's pretty wild.

JDs are not lacking applicants at all, even oboes received lots of applications this year.

Maybe at pro level fewer people are interested as you can't earn decent living doing classical music.

This is interesting, but I suppose they have to be STEM professionals first and not doing grade 8 by 8, these are two very different childhoods 😄

I think it’s the thread title that has provoked most of these responses OP -
of course music lessons aren’t a waste of time for all the reasons people say.

Also - I’m a former classical musician and most of my friends are musicians. Many of them went to specialist music schools. A couple are concerto soloists. None of them had grade 8 by 8 and many hadn’t even started at that age. As you will know, you can start strings and piano young but most woodwind and brass instruments can’t be properly learned until late primary or later. I started my instrument at 10, did grade 8 at 14, was in NYO, had scholarships to all the major conservatoires and had an orchestral job.

You are absolutely right though that for such a demanding profession which requires so much talent and commitment from a young age, even the top orchestral
jobs are really poorly paid. It is a sad fact that our culture doesn’t value classical music the way eg Germany does.

Fortunately the vast vast majority of kids (and the adults who persevere) do it for love, not for career prospects or money. My involvement in music has been the greatest joy of my life, even though I no longer play professionally. My children are learning - one is extremely musical, the other less so - and it is so rewarding seeing them begin their own musical journeys.

Musical instrument lessons and dance classes aren't supposed to be on-the-job training, they are supposed to be just a fun extra-curricular activity like any other. If children don't much enjoy it, then they stop after a while. If they do enjoy it, then they carry on for as long as they want to.

Almost all of them will just be doing it recreationally, and will enjoy it at that level, having no interest in a career as an orchestral violinist or professional dancer. A very small handful will show an exceptional talent and desire to pursue it to a higher level.

Who cares which is which? As a parent, you are just paying for your kid to have a fun hobby. What does it matter whether they show talent at it or not? Nobody sends their child to Cubs or Brownies with the expectation of a career at the end of it.

Do children learn a musical instrument because they want to be a concert soloist? All my kids just wanted to play the instrument they chose and don't have a particular end goal in mind.

I was never going to be professional, but am very glad I have amateur music making as part of my life, and I play in two orchestras, one of which is very good. I also play piano and organ very regularly, and make a bit of money on weddings and funerals. I don't have time for a regular choir, but do occasional singing. When I was first working, I wasn't doing much beyond a bit of piano playing at home, but even then I would not have called it a waste.

I think learning a musical instrument can bring you joy. It's also true that it's one of those middle-class accomplishments for many, given you have to pay mostly for private lessons, that not everyone is enjoying. I did not like my piano lessons, but there was no quitting til I failed a grade and was a teenager and refused to take it again.

It would be great if everyone could do it, and then those with either skills for learning, talent or enjoyment could do it, I'm not quite sure that's what's currently happening.

Others have talked about the benefits of music lessons. But they are also part of a well-rounded education.

Most children do not become chemists, physicists, or historians. We still expect them to study chemistry, physics and history at school.

In the same way, most children who learn an instrument do not become professional musicians, most children who learn to swim do not become Olympic medalists and most children who play football do not end up playing in the Premier League.

Playing an instrument, swimming and playing football are more than a means to an end. They are ends in themselves and bring people a lot of joy.

Just to add - the famous pianist I mentioned above who was a family friend was of course unbelievably talented and played from a young age, but didn't become "recognised" as something special until his later teens/ young adulthood, so not exactly at the age of 8 🤷‍♀️

While I do think that overall kids should be enjoying their music, one of the lessons that learning an instrument can teach is perseverance.

Sometimes my kids are more enthusiastic than others - but as they get better, more fun things open up (groups, playing with friends, concerts, tours etc). Learning that you need to put a bit of work in to get to the reward is a good life lesson. It can come from a variety of activities, DD is more musical than sporty/dramay etc though.

It does sound like the people you know are taking it a bit far (and yes, I know of people like that too, but not many). That is a parenting issue rather than specifically about music. I also would roll my eyes at parents who are overly pushy in other areas too.

We had a close friend who became a multi-millionaire pianist (unfortunately he died young of an illness) but his estate was worth millions.

Also other friends who make a very good living as opera singers.

Other classical musicians we know teach as well as play and seem to make a decent living (one plays the saxophone 🎷 in his own classical band).

I don't think it's an impossible career at all. 🤷‍♀️

Ye gods @Baldrick23 , that's a depressing view.

DD2 is at music school. On MDS. She hasn't even got her grade 8 in her main instrument - and she's 15 (she does have grade 8 in another one, but was 13 when she took that). Is she on the scrap heap already?

Or perhaps she isn't really that interested in being a 'concert soloist'?

I suspect her career may be as patchy and portfolio based as mine as a freelance journalist - but I don't necessarily see that as a bad thing. And it may be conservatoire, and it may be uni - does it really matter at this juncture? she's on to get great GCSEs anyway, and it isn't like her music degree would be less valuable than mine - in classics- -for most jobs.

the world of employment is wide, and vast, and changing. I have no idea what either of my children will do for careers - music may or may not be part of it. If it isn't, it won't stop her having loved it - and loved her school experience.

Fully agree with @Realduchymarmalade
My teenager spends ages in her room. She games, but she also plays and sing. I love hearing her spending time playing. She loves it.
Did she always love the hardship of learning and practising? No, there was a time she strugled with it. But once practising gave its fruits, she is much more confident. She spends hours on it, nobody tells her to. She taught herself to play a few basic songs by ear. I booked her for lessons. She liked it. Then she strugled with the hand coordination. We cheered her over the bump. All self motivation from then onwards, plus she sings. Now also plays wind instruments and self teaches guitar.
Music is a great way to show them the value of perseverance and practice, on top of the joy of it.

I sort of agree ..... I think a lot of parents force their kids to do music and practice at home when their kids dont enjoy it. Plus most adults I know no longer play their instruments so it's not even a hobby now they are adults. I do wonder whether some instruments are more suited to carrying on as an adult than others. I'd say it's different from joining a choir - most people around me are still singing on a weekly basis. So maybe instead of music - more kids should be encouraged to sing.

So yes for a lot of people - music is just yet another thing that middle class kids do - music, tennis etc.

Two of mine did violin for 12 years. I'd always regretted not learning an instrument so I encouraged them to do it. They weren't amazing, but they enjoyed it, which was all I wanted for them. Also playing in ensembles helped so much with their confidence - they were so quiet at primary school, and would hardly talk, yet would happily go and play in concerts and assemblies. They went on a music tour abroad in secondary school, which was a great opportunity for them.

Now they're adults they don't play anymore, but one is always strumming on his guitar or ukulele, which he taught himself.

Learning an instrument or playing a sport as a child is rarely about becoming skilled enough to become a professional. Some people harbor delusions of their child translating the skill to a job, but most recognize it for the main purpose. There is value in just doing these things even if there is no hope of accomplishment.

Conservatoire graduated violinist and professional orchestral musician here. I don’t agree that music lessons are pointless for kids, mainly because learning an instrument has so many benefits in other areas! It’s proven to help memory, concentration etc. Those aspects are transferable to other areas too. Not everyone’s goal is to become a professional musician, and that’s totally fine.”Forcing talentless musicians to scrape their way humourlessly to grade 2” is a terrible thing to say. It’s about what the experience brings to the child, not their ability level. Who cares if they’re the next Beethoven or not, learning to play an instrument is about instilling the love of music and reaping the other rewards listed above.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/oct/03/school-results-music-bradford

This is why as a society we should be funding a lot of music in schools, particularly primary.

My children started young and played in national orchestras but with no pressure or expectation to be professional musicians - it was pursued for its own sake. not just "for fun". I do think it develops other attributes, e.g. perseverance.

I do think the OP has a point about some people needing a reality check, e.g. if you're grade 7 in your mid-teens that's really not that high a level.

I agree with you about the parents who love showing off their darrrrrling's grades 😂. Grades are crap. They suck the joy out of making music. And are rather conformist. Shake of the ABRSM shackles and have fun with music focus on pieces your dc enjoys and loves. Lots of the ABRSM pieces are shit, no shitter than shit. Joyless.

And ultra strict and full of themselves music teachers, lol where did they get their self importance from.

I wouldn't want my dc to be a professional musician. But making music is lovely for musical people as is sports for sporty ones.

Being a professional musician is also very competitive, such a lovely activity and such a toxic and elitist culture. Also favours the privately educated. Give me a well paid hybrid profession job with flexibility and lots of time for hobbies any time.

Your post made me laugh. A part of me sort of agrees. There are a lot of children being pushed through grades to try to get into an academic private secondary, or to try to bolster a personal statement. Or just so that parents can boast on SM about tarquin's brilliance at contra bassoon.
BUT many children don't do music in order to become professional musicians. Music scholarships for example provide extra curricular stuff which is valuable (in my view) and being a good musician allows you to play in bands, ensembles or orchestra tours, which gives you a 'tribe' or friends outside school in those tricky teen years, and into uni and adulthood.
And it's a wonderful skill. But one which sometimes might need just a bit of pushing from parents. DC may moan about practice but it's the practice that makes the good stuff possible.

I think woodwind, brass and percussion are probably easiest to carry on with at university.

There are often huge non-auditioned wind bands and brass bands as well as orchestra and smaller groups like clarinet choirs and jazz groups and things. There's always opportunities to play for musicals as well.

I got the impression it wasn't quite as easy for strings because more was auditioned (although that might vary by place), and of course piano isn't as ensemble friendly and might be harder to practice depending on practice rooms etc. Although with better keyboards now maybe more students would have one of those?

Not everyone who earns a musical instrument is destined to be a concert soloist - otherwise we would have tonnes of soloists.

One of my friends learned the clarinet as a teenager, and now aged 35 is playing in a local orchestra after 10 years not playing. No, she isn't professional but it brings her joy, friendship, something to focus on. it's a very healthy skill to have. It's like saying nobody should learn football as they won't ever play in a premier league team - well plenty can play grassroots right?

Hard disagree in afraid. You don't have to be aiming for a career to get something out of playing an instrument. I stuck at the violin for over 10 years and scraped (literally) a Grade 6 . I went to a very musical school and managed to sneak into the symphony orchestra by switching to viola and that was a great experience that gave me the opportunity to perform in some great classics and changed how I heard orchestral music.

Haven't picked up a fiddle since, but it was totally worth it.

The sad thing is that too few kids have the opportunity to play in ensembles, which is one of the great parts of learning.