Music lessons are a waste of time for most kids

In London you can't have any pastime without it being incredibly competitive, even as a kid. Maybe even especially as a kid. I wonder if this is the same across the country. It's a shame because it makes everything about drive and achievement (or effortless talent if you believe in such things) and leaves very little room for just enjoying stuff, doing it for the sake of it, or thinking about all the other skills and qualities it can bring you. Also sucks the joy out of everything as you can't wholeheartedly congratulate your mates when they do well in case they might be better than you.

Sempelderm, he also went on to a specialist music school, the Yehudi Menuhin one .

I know of a child who won at a serious competition - not BBC but not a village festival either, and that was competing against internationals. Very musical not just technical.
They didn't get an offer from RCM.

Semperldem, my son 8, also had a very talented boy in his class who went on to win the BBC young musician of the year. He played at the end of term concert and you would have heard the cheer from the other boys miles away.

The early grade 8 I know did grade 3, grade 5, 2 terms later then grade 8 a year later, while maintaining at least a couple of non music related hobbies. Two years later they had grade 8 in two unrelated instruments (and still did their other hobbies).
Some children are just talented.

That's a usual sneering comment about "less musical but drilled since nappies" children - in fact, exceptionally talented children from our cohort have been "drilled" roughly as much as "just talented" or "not so talented".

I won't make denigrating comments about your DC as you did about mine.

I agree with the op ; fantastic if a child enjoys music and is happy to learn an instrument for pleasure and all the other benefits.

But a decent career in music is unbelievably difficult to achieve and maintain. I have 3 siblings who are professional musicians and wow it's a tough way to make a living.

Exactly @Londonmummy66 - you’re absolutely right (at least for the JD where DH teaches).

TBH I think that the kids who get in with the early grade 8s are often the ones who are less musical and have been drilled since they were in nappies and need the advanced level to get into the upper levels of JD. However there is also room for the really musical kids who started later (and therefore may not have realised their full potential) to get in playing at a lower standard but with great musicality. The former can be taught (and its what they're going to JD to do after all) the latter cannot so if a JD finds it they are likely to want to nurture it.

I say this as the mother of a DD who was at a JD for a very competitive instrument and put up two academic year groups whilst there.She was only Grade 5 at 10 (having only started learning 2 years before) but what she could do with a Grade 5 piece was quite outstanding. They spotted the potential and 18 months later she was Grade 8. Girl the year below her playing at a similar level got an MDF funded place to specialist school - again she was exceptionally musical despite not being quite there on her technique.

I think that JD audition panels need to be given more credit for seeing through the flash than some posters are giving them.

Some of JD string players are home schooled/part schooled to allow time for practice. That's if the parents want to "raise a soloist".

Who knows what is in the best interest of the child - maybe just doing hours of sports outdoors, but not everyone does it either.

2 hours practice when they're only 8 - Unless the child is independently hyper focused on their instrument that is not necessarily in the best interest of the child. Sure some kids will be hype focused, often twice exceptional with profound talent, but in the case of most this sounds like tiger parenting.

I'm typing in haste so probably that's why the bluntness, sorry.

I also know children who were accepted below grade 8, by coincidence they happen to be private pupils of some JD teachers 😄 Anyway, I think we agreed on the point that talent is not measured by grades.

Getting back to the OP - a successful soloist career is a combination of really exceptional talent, extremely hard work and stamina in the very long run, strong personality and charisma, very pushy parents, connections, sacrifices, a bit of luck - and God's blessing.

There are too many factors for anyone to be planning on that 😄 Although some JD parents clearly have these ambitions.

Mine is lazy, so not every day and never ever more than an hour even though it's badly needed for the violin. But we also have to juggle three instruments and choristers so lots of music making and developing aural/inner hearing, but very patchy practice if you look at each instrument.

DC's fellow violinists and pianists practised between one and two hours a day at that age, but usually had only two instruments.

Havent RTWT as I can't be bothered, but I disagree, vehemently disagree. I have a Piano diploma and Gr8 in a different instrument. I work in a completely unrelated field, music was never going to be my career but I absolutely loved it.

Studying music teaches you tons of stuff including tenacity and discipline. Going to the county music orchestra on Saturdays on the bus in the middle of winter requires both of those things. It teaches you teamwork, opens your world up a bit as you meet kids you'd never meet at secondary school. Brings travel opportunities and all manner of other benefits.

I've made friends through music all my life - uni orchestra, community orchestra, etc., etc.. I never wanted to study music at uni but that doesn't make it worthless.

I guess I was referring to the bluntness and emoji use, not the content, but appreciate it’s hard to judge tone on these.

As you say, BBC young musicians are exceptionally talented, which goes to show that it doesn’t hold you back to start later, particularly on woodwind and brass.

Re the JD entrance - you’re right about where Dh teaches. Not on violin but the other instrument you referred to as being particularly competitive. They have accepted people who have been below grade 8 standard at audition but have performed well in other ways.

So learning to play an instrument is only worthwhile if it results in a profitable career? - what total nonsense.

I can play several instruments not very well at all - but well enough to have a lot of fun.

I can also cook but dont make a living out of it.

Why is something only worthwhile if it results in profit?

DC is not a horn player so I have no question on this, but I appreciate your offering of advice. The auditions DC did were on the violin - grade 7 was not enough for JD.
Pianists I know started much later than 3 or 4 but they practise a couple of hours a day hence the result.

Because it is all about the practice. No one magically gets to that level - preteen, teen or adult.

well playing at that level is for musical geniuses. Hopefully for kids who innately enjoy making music. Because there will be a lot of practice need to achieve such a level of playing at such a young age, they sound like prodigies. Out of curiosity, how many hours a week / day did you dc practice their instrument at age 8-10?

You are mistaken re. aggression, but I am speaking from experience of having DC through a "kindergarten" programme and to JD at a London conservatoire - and my experience is just very different to what you say. Half of DC's cohort auditioned from "kindergarten" to JD at 10, all strings had to play grade 8 or "at grade 8 standard" meaning advanced technique even if lower grade pieces 🤷‍♀️ If I remember correctly, DC played grade 7 pieces at age 10 for RCM your husband is probably teaching at - and didn't get an offer, but got another one with grade 8 pieces half a year later. Pretty much everyone I know is doing more or less the same level and it's considered normal. DC is in no way exceptionally talented, rather average or slightly below our JD cohort.

All brass players at the conservatoire kindergarten have been learning since 6, despite the teeth etc. Trombones were plastic for maybe a year.

That other people's experience is not the same as yours doesn't mean they are aggressive. It's just simple facts.

BBC Young Musicians are usually exceptionally talented so it doesn't matter that much when they started, or "politically correct choices" so it's no indication either. We know some of them so again I'm speaking from experience.

It's factual. I know a fair few professional musicians (including some very successful ones) and none of them were grade 8 at age 8. Most of them started learning an instrument at age 8.

My husband has made a living as a musician and composer. He can't read music and didn't learn any music theory really until his music therapy masters in his mid 40s. He's released several albums on major labels, toured the world and also composed scores for a large number of theatre productions.

He's never done any grades and did most of his musical skill development as an adult after not enjoying sporadic childhood music lessons.

Learning music - even just the basics - for me is a life skill like swimming or riding a bike. It helps you understand the world on a different level, with a richness you'd otherwise be locked out of. Playing and enjoying music socially has bwen a great source of pleasure. I'm an absolute amateur but it means a lot to me. There's loads of different ways for music to be meaningful in your life beyond 'career as concert musician'

I know that junior Guildhall does this - it is an absolutely terrible idea and completely unnecessary.

It would be much better for the kids to start on trumpet or corner or tenor horn and move to horn when they are strong enough to physically support the instrument.

There are no benefits to be gained from starting it too young and lots of potential downsides. In Guildhall’s case it is done to balance their ensembles and several horn players have tried to get them to change it. This is something I know a lot about - happy to discuss further by DM if you like.

As an adult I've discovered the joy of doing a hobby I am bad at but really enjoy (actually a sport not music but the same principle). It makes a big difference to my quality of life even though I'm rubbish at it. As long as my kids are trying at their hobbies I am happy to support them regardless of whether they're any good at it. One of my children came last in a hobby competition a little while ago but I was really proud of him because taking part in the event involved a lot of hanging around waiting for his turn which he coped with really well even though sitting still and waiting is not something he's normally very good at. So the transferable skills are really valuable.
It has taken a bit of a change of mindset for me as a natural perfectionist though!

@Ubertomusic i don’t know if it’s intentional but your posts are coming across quite aggressively.

Im a former professional musician, my husband is a professional musician and teaches at one of the London conservatoires and its junior department (possibly the most prestigious one if relevant). There are only a handful of 8 year olds at there and for what it’s worth they aren’t all grade 8 level - for the youngest ones they look for musicality and potential above achievement.

I agree with you that grades don’t necessarily measure talent but at the same time there is no way an 8 year old can reach grade 8 level without some level
of natural aptitude or ability for the instrument on top of significant parental involvement.