Music lessons are a waste of time for most kids

I have always said that true talent will show whatever age an instrument is started. I also think it is important to have a childhood and pursue different interests and to simply play and be able to use their imagination. In addition, I do not think it is necessary to begin formal instrumental lessons before school age, either. In my many years of experience, eight is the best age for the vast majority of children to begin piano lessons - the term before the eighth birthday for girls and the term after for boys. Seven is a good age for starting violin lessons. I began learning the piano just before my seventh birthday and took to it from the beginning. I had a few hiccups with serious illness and a house move - l probably lost around two years' worth of lessons because of this. However, I kept myself going. I had excellent teachers as a teenager and was really able to take flight then. Having learnt recorder at school, I was able to have a good introduction to ensemble playing. When I was 12 ½, I had the chance to learn the violin through the excellent peripatetic scheme of the seventies and eighties. I took to it straight away and loved the opportunity to play in (auditioned) youth orchestras as l progressed. In those days, music colleges insisted on a first and second study instrument and your second instrument had to be at a fairly high standard. I had piano as my first instrument and violin, later viola as my second. I didn't know until I was sixteen that I had perfect pitch - l thought all trained musicians heard music as l did and could read sheet music like a book, "hearing" the notes at pitch in my head. I have also had impaired hearing most of my life. I have had a wonderful career as a teacher on my three instruments and as an accompanist.
My second example is my school friend, a 'cellist. He started lessons at school through the peripatetic scheme at the age of nine and had these twenty minutes per week lessons until the age of sixteen when he passed grade 8 with one of the highest marks in the country. He had private lessons in the sixth form, went on to the Royal Academy of Music and, after graduation, was offered a choice by two of the most prestigious orchestras in the UK.
My final example is my pupil who began piano lessons when he was seven and is now, aged sixteen, in a Saturday junior department. He has, in the year since he started there, had a composition chosen for professional performance. He was by far the youngest of the five who were chosen and the only second study composer. His piano playing is sublime and he has a great future ahead of him.
This is why I find the pushiness that certain, very obviously London-centric posters have displayed, most alien. All these young children with grade 8. To me, this sounds rushed and more for the boasting of the parents basking in the reflected glory of their offspring. These children are obviously talented, but is the pushing necessary for most of them to achieve this really worth it in the long run? I reiterate: true talent will out whenever a child begins to learn an instrument and 99.9% recurring of people have no ambitions for a career in music, but almost everyone can reap benefits from learning an instrument.

You cannot honestly say that an international competition winner is "less musical" than someone else at auditions. There are not so
many of such winners at this age anyway.

I'm OK with people commenting my posts and I'm not in the habit of telling people to leave social
platforms if they have opinions different to mine. I just said I had no questions as I knew it's very subjective and about personal preferences of the panel - not about grades or being "more musical" whatever this means.

Frankie rose - thank you x

she sounds very cool!

The slash there means “or” - I wasn’t saying anything about JD parents in particular.

There are lots of competitive parents in music though (and in dance, sport, drama too).

@Ubertomusic Phil started at 7 I think? He was in my year at conservatoire and I know him well. As you say, he comes from
a brass band family and any child growing up in a musical household will have a great head start.

You’re also completely misrepresenting what I said (which was quite nuanced and detailed in relation to specific instruments) and misquoting me. My main point was that it isn’t necessary to start at very young ages in order to make a career in music. This is particularly true on wind and brass but it is also true on strings and piano. My DH started the latter at 9 and I’m sure with a bit of effort you’ll be able to track him
down on Google.

I think from your posts you’ve got children who are in the thick of it now. But time will tell who actually wants to make a career out of it and who succeeds in doing so, and it’s not always the JD stars or the kids who started youngest or whatever.

I know someone who self-taught themselves saxophone at 17 and became an incredibly successful muscian playing in orchestras, pop bands had number one hits and also played on records with the The Beach Boys. Please define success?

@SweetforOrchestra I’m from Ireland and was spared the JD/competitive parent madness growing up as it just doesn’t exist there (in the same way!) it's interesting that you have developed such an impression about JD parents. Your DH told you? Most of the kids being good at JD is because of that they are simply talented not because of the madness of their parents.

@Newgirls no agent, she mainly gets contacted on her social media platforms. She has met lots of connections through her music college in London and now her uni. The more gigs and networking she does the more contacts she gets. I would highly encourage your DD, they meet people along the way on their journey! I love that she is doing what makes her happy and not some safe job.

Frankierose - can I ask how your dd gets gigs? Does she have an agent? I know very little about how musicians get gigs and this might be my dd path too one day

OP is a cellist presumably teaching string players. For the majority of them (us) what OP says is the harsh reality. It's a totally different world for bassoonists and many other instruments. But MC parents at local schools do not take their children to bassoon lessons in droves - it's mostly violin, piano, cello, guitar. And since musicians on this thread say "it's bad for the child to start wind or brass at 6, it's a terrible thing to do" - so parents follow this advice and don't take their children to brass lessons either 😂 (unless they are brass band families - then we get stars like Phil Cobb).

British system is not focussed on developing soloists anyway - we have probably one of the best orchestral musicians in the world but string and piano soloists are mostly being trained in the US, Russia, South Korea, Germany/Austria. It's a very different perspective on music and personality development - what Vengerov's mother did to him would raise more than "oh but is it good for the child?", neighbours would probably call social services listening to a 4yo practising for hours and hours late at night - but that's partly how he became an international star soloist. Mozart was forced to do this too, but no one would even think about this here let alone do it - so we don't have international classical stars of this calibre these days, but we somehow love Mozart's music despite knowing his story.

But this reality has nothing to do with MC children learning a bit of music or even becoming a professional orchestral musician so I'm not sure where OP got that notion from 🙂

My DD went to music colllege and studies music at university. She is a bass guitar player and goes on tour with bands, she is 19 years old and booked for some big gigs, touring with some new up and coming artists who support the big bands! She has a bud social media following bf and regularly gets contacted for work. Women bass players are in demand, we should be encouraging kids to go for their dreams in music not dismissing them.

@minisnowballs I’m from Ireland and was spared the JD/competitive parent madness growing up as it just doesn’t exist there (in the same way!)

Absolutely loads of my friends have ended up with careers in music despite starting their instruments at 8 or 9 and doing grade 8 in their mid teens, and not just on the rarer instruments. A violinist I was at school with (who started with group lessons at school at 8) won the top prize graduating from RCM, is in an internationally renowned string quartet and often leads Aurora Orchestra, so you can take a lot of the stuff on this thread about levels and ages etc with a hefty pinch of salt.

It sounds like your DD is thriving and Im sure will do really well in whatever she wants to do.

No, I agreed with the comment that JD audition panels are able to assess musicality, and that someone who doesn’t have grade 8 (or is at grade 8 standard) might get a place over someone who does/is, if the panel thinks they are more musical. It all really depends on the other people auditioning and performance on the day and the personal preference of the panel too. I think you would agree?

I was responding to your comment about the competition winner who didn’t get a place at RCMJD. If you don’t want people to respond to what you say then a chat forum might not be the place for you.

I didn't ask any questions though @SweetforOrchestra
Saying that children who turn up at auditions with early g8 are less musical is daft, but you agreed with that daft and rude comment so I merely pointed out to the fact that reality is much more complex.
I know very well music is very subjective. My friends adore Hilary Hahn, I find her dry and rather boring and it's fine to have different tastes.

I had music lessons as a child. I got to grade 6 by my teens and grade 8 at 20-24 in 3 instruments. If I hadn't started so young I may never have done it. I now attend local music meets and my son comes too. He is 5 and starting an instrument next month. He's very excited.

Music lessons brought me, someone not super academic by nature, a sense of joy and belonging. If I was never offered that opportunity I may never have found this outlet that still serves me well as an adult.

Music lessons, if the child enjoys them, are never a waste of time.

I just wanted my kids to have something they could make friends with! DD1 plays the viola and stopped at grade 6, at which she reckons she could prob get into an amateur orchestra at uni because it's not a popular instrument. She wants to be a geriatric nurse and has also been studying how music is used in care homes, going in with an incredible pianist who does this as charity work. There's an awful lot more to music than grades and competition.

I have no delusions about my child becoming a soloist or a music teacher, despite his gaining a music place at a (state) school, but I want him.to be able to enjoy playing music and I do tell him it's very important to be able to get some coppers busking in the street if he's ever going through hard times, or to entertain people and make friends with the universal language of music if he's travelling far from home.

I can’t speak for the other poster but she said “often” which I read as “not always”.

The point really is that the Jds are not looking for people with grade 8 per se, but the people who impress at audition.

And in answer to @Ubertomusic - impressing at audition is necessarily subjective so it’s totally possible someone might not get a JD offer but then win a competition. People have good days and bad days too!

I know an award winning cellist who started learning aged 12 because the council Music service provided free lessons.

That example aside, there are many reasons for learning to play musical instruments other than becoming a high level concert pianist. Love of music making and social opportunities being key among them. None of my children want to be professional musicians, but they have all had the opportunity to learn. One is STEM focussed, but is a decent cellist, can improvise beautifully on the piano and play along to people singing on the guitar (self taught). I think you need to change your mindset and focus on the joy of doing something for its own sake.

@Spinet dd2 and dd1 for a while were at cym in London- which is part of guildhall but a very different beast. It never felt competitive or pushy - just hundreds of kids having a good time on their instrument. Some do become professional- but really many of them are in it to make friends and have a laugh on a Saturday. That’s what I wanted for both my girls. They had a blast !

The more I read this thread the more I wonder what dd2 is doing at specialist school- and the happier I am she’s there instead of at jd- which would have been an alternative option. Same teachers …same funding. Actually more lesson time (two hours a week on main instrument is standard). Lucky girl.

Dd2 just loves music and now- given the opportunities- she’s flying on all her instruments without really any pressure to compare herself and enjoying lots of ensembles. Maybe - having read all this- it might be because the parents really aren’t involved!

Thank god there’s no pressure for a bassoonist to be an international soloist’ - shouldn’t imagine they’d have much of a career!

Thank you @SweetforOrchestra the best instrument! When he started at 7 we had no idea he’d be any good at it.

There's quite a good body of evidence to support the idea that learning an instrument has positive effects on the human brain in terms of improving memory, cognitive ability and improves mental health. I wouldn't consider any of that a waste of time.

Not every passion pursued is done so with the intention of turning it into a lucrative career. Many people play instruments because they enjoy it and it has social benefits for them.

I think you're being utterly ridiculous

I wonder how many kids you met at JD got grade 8 at 8 for you to get this conclusion. Many JD students don't bother to take grade exam. I know Jacky Zhang quite well who is an exceptional to get grade 8 when he was 7. He started to study at RCM before 13 and now an excellent concert pianist. Do you know any JD student with grade 8 at 8 is not musical?

No DH isn’t horn - that’s my instrument! An excellent choice on your DS’s part :) Best of luck to him!

This is interesting- my kid is a horn player. He started at 7 but he was early getting his adult teeth so that must have been a factor. He’s probably encountered your H if he’s a horn tutor as he auditioned and got offers from 5 or maybe 6 conservatoires. He absolutely doesn’t want to be a soloist but loves what he does. My friend was a professional musician and always advised against it too!
Grade wise he did 8 aged 15 and now aged 20 hasn’t done any further diplomas or the like but his playing has come on immensely.