Music lessons are a waste of time for most kids

£10 says that DD2 is a brass band musician and she's done something like transfer from tenor horn to baritone horn or from cornet to euphonium.

Why I think this: all the piston-valved instruments are played the same way and have the music written so that the fingerings match up exactly with what the notes a written like, regardless of how big the instrument is. So soprano cornet, 3ft long and with a lowest no-valve note of Eb on a piano, that note is written as C below the staff in treble clef. Bb tuba, 18ft long, lowest no-valve note is Bb on the piano, that note is still written as C below the treble clef staff. Yes, brass band tuba parts are written in treble clef even though they are bass instruments. The whole reason for this is so that players can change instrument easily.

I loved playing in brass bands when I was younger but I can't cope with the competitive culture of contesting bands, and it's hard where I live to find a non-contesting one with a full complement of players.

ETA: it occurs to me that saxophones behave the same way. But, I stand by "brass bander" because saxophonists tend not to think of the different sax sizes as "similar instruments", but as "the same instrument in a different size". Brass band musicians think of the baritone horn as a different instrument from the tenor horn, even though they are arguably "same but different size". And the euphonium and baritone horn are not the same instrument despite being in the same register, looking nearly the same, and being played the same way: one has wider pipes than the other.

There is a failure of logic there, even if it’s what I said, which it isn’t.

I only asked if you were a native speaker because I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt after numerous comprehension fails in relation to my posts. If English wasn’t your first language it would have been unfair of me. And you’re quite right - I did say I wasn’t going to engage further. Have a good evening.

Then surely you can't make comments about professional musicians "doing terrible things" as you are not a professional musician anymore?

Anyway, you keep contradicting yourself as you said you didn't want to engage with me further. I don't mind btw if we're discussing things productively, not throwing insults at children (and parents. and teachers) or asking who speaks what language 😁

I’m not a professional musician anymore, as I said in an earlier post. I am in a completely different line of work now.

I don’t regard everyone who plays an instrument as a colleague, no. And I think that’s normal, not sad?!

I never said you worked at Guildhall. You are colleagues because you are all musicians, and they are no less professional than you. It's sad you don't understand this without me having to say it.

@Frizno my DD is 6 and wants to play the guitar and ukulele.

She started on the latter.

She wants to play them because she thinks it is fun.

She has young adult cousins who play them for fun even though some of them are grade 8 in them and other instruments. I noticed when they were teens it gave them something to do rather than just stare at screens if they weren't into sport or dropped the sport they were doing.

One of the issue with teens, which my friends and acquaintances have shown, is they often just want to do very little but they all like music. So the ones who play instruments will play a song or a piece of music over and over again until they are happy with it.

I don’t work at Guildhall. I never said I did.

It is clear that for whatever reason you are having difficulty understanding me. Perhaps it is my writing style and I haven’t been clear. But apology accepted.

Yes, exactly. That was precisely my point.

@flyhalf- that is a beautiful story. Thanks for reminding me what all this is really for. It is easy to get caught up and panicky with music sometimes when you have a child who gets really into it (and the weird little world it can become for some) and forget it really is about people and connection.

i hope it continues to provide joy to all the children an d parents on this thread who are continuing to get so much out of it!

This is beautiful ❤️

True.
Well said.

But the parents bragging that their dc has grade this that or the other, are weirdos. 😜

Huh?!

My daughter is 11 and has piano and singing lessons.

She's a good few grades behind a lot of the kids she goes to school with as (piano especially) we very much treat as a hobby. Luckily we found a piano teacher who feels the same and gives her plenty of chance between grades to play fun pieces.

I was never going to force her through grades etc.

But. I think it's wonderful to be able to read music and play an instrument. She's naturally quite musical and so we've encouraged that.

She has a really incredible singing voice and so does practice her singing more and her school encourages her to do more with that 'instrument'

BUT

None of us have any dreams of it making her any money etc or shaping her life.

Just the same as she didn't do swimming lessons or dance classes for those to turn into a career.

She's just a child and we want her to experience lots.

As someone who's parents didn't put me in any extra curricular lessons and so I got to my teen years not having the confidence to join any sports or music or dance clubs etc as I felt so behind compared to schoolmates I wanted different for her.

This is what it is all about imo. 👏

There's some bloody sharp elbows on this thread. Talk about over invested!

I know one JD teacher doesn't like Langlang and it doesn't prevent he is a great pianist. You don't like Jacky's Bach interpretation doesn't prevent that he is one of the best British young pianist.

very obviously London-centric posters

I have to admit, I was thinking this. Perhaps it's different out here in the provinces!

I volunteer at a couple of local music festivals, and there are children from the nearby specialist musical school entering, as well as a big "extra-curricular music school" that has a lot of very good pupils. I still don't think I've ever seen an eight year old in a grade 8 class.

Grade 6 yes, but in general I would say that they seem to get to Grade 6/7 quickly then spend a couple of years consolidating or maybe working on their second instrument before they do Grade 8. It's very unusual to have a primary school pupil in a grade 8 class in my experience.

(I also have one of those "portfolio career" musician DPs and he didn't get any of his multiple G8s that young.)

I did GCSE Music, as an averagely competent young musician - while I was never going to set the world on fire with my treble recorder, I had the uplifting experience of creating bigger, beautiful sounds with a group of others, whether it was the choir or the orchestra or even the recorder group. I listened to a lot of different kind of music and learned to pick it apart a little. But mainly, I experienced the joy of singing loudly, aerobically, emotionally, uninhibitedly: something that's stayed with me all my life, through good times and bad, even if it's just in my own kitchen.

These are positive experiences for young people, and almost certainly what my aspirational lower MC parents (who hadn't had the privilege of lessons themselves) had in mind when they first plonked me on a piano stool aged 6, not the expectation that one day they'd be seeing me at the Royal Albert Hall. When both my parents were in their final days, we listened to our favourite music together, and it filled the agony of the silence better than words could.

I've just Googled JD for the benefit of those of us who are not sending our kids there - it means 'Junior Department' (of a top music school like Royal School of Music etc). The fact that parents can throw these terms around without explaining them to other people outside this system and at the same time claim that their child / they do not take part in the competitive nature of this stuff as it's purely talent that makes their child do it makes me laugh quite honestly.

Sorry I thought you were not going to engage with me further, now you want to know if I'm foreign? 🤔

We are Roma so usually multilingual. Does it make a difference for you? I can read very well, thank you :)

So you didn't say any of "If you don't want people to respond to what you say then a chat forum might not be the place for you"? Who typed that then?? 😂

As a Romani person I find your claim about children not being able to learn most wind and brass instruments properly until late primary absolutely hilarious tbh. If pointing out to the facts contradicting your opinion (be it Phil Cobb from British brass bands or Gypsy brass bands or Guildhall students - btw it's not very professional to say about your colleagues from Guildhall that they are doing terrible things, and I hear that Guildhall is better for brass than RCM though it's debatable of course) anyway if this is "being argumentative" then yes, I am argumentative. Sorry! 😂

I reiterate: true talent will out whenever a child begins to learn an instrument and 99.9% recurring of people have no ambitions for a career in music, but almost everyone can reap benefits from learning an instrument.

Perfect answer to the original question and perfect reply to those urging children to start training children to play before they've been trained to use a potty....

@Ubertomusic cool but I didn’t stay any of that. Is English your first language? You
are consistently missing or ignoring the nuances in my posts.

Performing "less well" - and this is also very subjective as per your example of Zhang's audition - doesn't make them "less musical".

"If you're not happy about people commenting your posts, maybe social media is not for you" is a standard passive-aggressive cliche, there is nothing to misinterpret or misunderstand here.

I would also appreciate it if you could stop ascribing other people's notions to me. I never said it's only early starters who could progress to a career of a musician - musician being a very wide term, not just soloist as in OP.

@Ubertomusic you are so argumentative and I really don’t know why.

In the post I was talking about you said this:

And since musicians on this thread say "it's bad for the child to start wind or brass at 6, it's a terrible thing to do"

You have used quotation marks there, but that is not what I said. So you misquoted me. I also said most wind or brass, not all. And I explained why.

I’m not going to engage with you further as I don’t think I deserve this level of rudeness and aggression. I’m just trying to share my experience and counter the posters (and the OP) who think that a career in music isn’t open to you if you haven’t achieved grade 8 by 8 years old.

I hope your children enjoy their musical experiences.

Yes, it’s definitely possible that an international competition winner performed less well than someone else at auditions. It happens all the time that people have a bad day or make mistakes they wouldn’t otherwise make. Or it might have been for other reasons other than how they played. It’s a bit pointless speculating.

I thought Jacky Zhang’s young musician audition was interesting in this context - his Bach interpretation was bizarre and not to my taste (or some of the panel’s), and there were also numerous slips in it, but he still got through. No one can deny he is immensely musical and gifted, but a different panel might not have put him through on the strength of that performance alone.

It would be great if you would stop misunderstanding and/or misinterpreting me - I didn’t say you should leave mumsnet because we disagreed.

Exactly, so we cannot say "he started at 7", he's just been living it from birth. But here we have a fine example of what it takes to have a soloist career (of course he's not just a soloist but you know what I mean) - his siblings come from the same family but they're not top-5 in the world like Phil.

I'm not misquoting you, that's exactly what you said: "As you will know, you can start strings and piano young but most woodwind and brass instruments can’t be properly learned until late primary or later". Your post was not about the career, but about the ability to learn the instrument. That's when I asked you what do you mean and you went on to say that Guildhall starts children early on the horn and that's a terrible idea. But initially you claimed that most wind and brass - MOST not just horn - cannot be properly learned until late primary. Which is simply not true in reality. Even if Phil Cobbs started at 7, it's not late primary, is it? Why do you think it's OK for Phil but not OK for other children?

I've never ever said it's impossible to have a career if you started late, please stop putting your words in my mouth. It would be as daft to say as "early g8 at auditions are less musical".

I'm not telling about my children either - mine is average at best compared with some super talented and very hard working peers. But the most exceptionally talented child I know at JD is not going to do it professionally as their parents won't let them - it has to be Oxbridge and investment banking, not music, God forbid!

Yes I agree with you. I graduated from RCM too and totally agree, most of my cohort hadn’t been at a Saturday junior department and certainly hadn’t started young young.

Completely wrong to think only those who started when they were toddlers will make it- it’s just not true at all!