Page 2 | Dartford Grammar School (DGS) New Admission Criteria

Pincopalla · 2024-08-31T06:26:53+00:00

Hi there, as some of you may know, DGS have recently changed their admission criteria to reduce the number of places allocated to OOC applicants (50) compared to IC Applicants (130 places). Do you know if they considered adding the sibling priority rule during the consultation process? I seem to remember that most local grammars (WGS, WGSG, BGS, C&S, Beths, Townley) have this in their admission criteria, except for DGS and DGGS. Of course, siblings would need to pass the relevant 11+ entry test.

SheilaFentiman · 21/10/2024 18:22

Pincopalla · 21/10/2024 18:17

@SheilaFentiman Thank you.

That way, if you had a sibling applying to the school he would get priority (either in Zone A or OOC), should they achieve a score of at least 372 (332+40)

Yes. I understand the maths. But (once more for the cheap seats) they are not allowed to have a sibling preference if ranking by score is part of the allocation process.

SheilaFentiman · 21/10/2024 18:21

You should be pleased about the new “at least plus 40” floor, OP - because it means that an IC applicant with a plus 35 score will fall into the second category and will definitely rank below an OOC applicant with a plus 40 score.

Original poster

Pincopalla · 21/10/2024 18:17

@SheilaFentiman Thank you.

That way, if you had a sibling applying to the school he would get priority (either in Zone A or OOC), should they achieve a score of at least 372 (332+40)

OP posts:

SheilaFentiman · 21/10/2024 18:08

To clarify what the OP is referring to:

www.dartfordgrammarschool.org.uk/docs/FAQs_Sept_2025.pdf

Original poster

Pincopalla · 21/10/2024 18:02

Araminta1003 · 21/10/2024 17:45

@Pincopalla - so you are arguing for sibling priority for siblings of OOC candidates? So older brother got 415 and younger brother may “only” get 395? Well you have been able to try and appeal that for years. Just get him doing Japanese on DuoLingo and prove to the panel why he needs a place. You do not need the school change all their criteria.

@Araminta1003 Why just to the OOC applicants? The sibling rule, if introduced, should apply to all. And if the school is worried about the bar falling too low (i.e. the pass rate for Kent test is 'just' 332), they can extend the Category 1 floor just introduced for Area A applicants to siblings, too:

'an eligible boy’s ability as indicated by his total score of at least 40 points higher than the Kent Test threshold score'

OP posts:

Lougle · 21/10/2024 17:51

Pincopalla · 21/10/2024 14:33

@SheilaFentiman I also said at the time that the conclusion you reached was wrong, of course in my opinion.

Did you ask the DfE or the school yourself? Where does your conviction come from?

I have read the School Admission Code in detail and I have concluded that it does not prevent DGS from adding the sibling rule. It does prevent St Olave's, for example, in doing so because it ONLY uses merit as their selection criteria, but DGS doesn't by giving priority to Zone A students, hence equally they could (legally) give priority to siblings.

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I disagree with your assessment of the admissions code. It very clearly state that if the pupils are ranked by score, they can't give sibling priority. Within each zone, the pupils are ranked by score.

Araminta1003 · 21/10/2024 17:49

Also, go study the 2024 results. As usual, far more OOC/Kent independent with the very top scores and note that for 2024 there are overall fewer top scorers than 2023. So who knows what the OOC benchmark will be this year despite fewer places.
The Kent private school kids and OOC applicants have as a group far more top scores than the Kent mainstream kids (majority taking the test).

Araminta1003 · 21/10/2024 17:45

@Pincopalla - so you are arguing for sibling priority for siblings of OOC candidates? So older brother got 415 and younger brother may “only” get 395? Well you have been able to try and appeal that for years. Just get him doing Japanese on DuoLingo and prove to the panel why he needs a place. You do not need the school change all their criteria.

SheilaFentiman · 21/10/2024 17:38

Pincopalla · 21/10/2024 17:36

Yes they do, but they have introduced a 'floor' as of this year (Sep 2025), probably because they were concerned that allocating so many places to Zone A applicants (from 90 to 140) would lower the bar too much...

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This
Is
Still
Allocating
By
Rank.

SheilaFentiman · 21/10/2024 17:37

You are right, @TeenToTwenties - from DGS admissions doc:

In the case of over-subscription, places are allocated in the order set out below. Within each section below, students are ranked according to the applicant’s total test score in the Kent Test. Please note that in the case of tied scores*, preference is given to the applicant living nearest to the school.

The two sections are:
CATEGORY 1 – Priority Area (130 places)
dress. CATEGORY 2 – All Applicants Regardless of Address (50 places)

Original poster

Pincopalla · 21/10/2024 17:36

TeenToTwenties · 21/10/2024 17:33

Oh, have I misunderstood?
I got the impression they divided into catchment and out of catchment then ordered according to test score within those 2 groups.

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Yes they do, but they have introduced a 'floor' as of this year (Sep 2025), probably because they were concerned that allocating so many places to Zone A applicants (from 90 to 140) would lower the bar too much...

OP posts:

TeenToTwenties · 21/10/2024 17:33

Pincopalla · 21/10/2024 17:30

@TeenToTwenties DGS has a test pass mark and oversubscription criteria rather than ranking applicants by test score (unlike St Olave's, QE, Henrietta, etc.). This is the main point...

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Oh, have I misunderstood?
I got the impression they divided into catchment and out of catchment then ordered according to test score within those 2 groups.

Original poster

Pincopalla · 21/10/2024 17:30

TeenToTwenties · 21/10/2024 16:44

If the admissions code meant 'only' or 'purely' wouldn't it say so?

@TeenToTwenties DGS has a test pass mark and oversubscription criteria rather than ranking applicants by test score (unlike St Olave's, QE, Henrietta, etc.). This is the main point...

OP posts:

Original poster

Pincopalla · 21/10/2024 17:22

Araminta1003 · 21/10/2024 16:58

OP when you are asking about sibling criteria do you actually think anyone passing the Kent test should get into Dartford? What do you actually mean?

Because I can tell you that a pass alone will find IB a struggle. So if the school has been run with kids with 380 plus scores for a number of years and many with 395 plus OOC, the standard would drop if “pass” alone were let in. They may even have to reintroduce A levels. A state school can probably unlikely afford to run both A levels and IB at the same time.

@Araminta1003 DGS have already introduced last year a higher threshold for students in Category A, i.e.:

Score – an eligible boy’s ability as indicated by his total score of at least 40 points higher than the Kent Test threshold score.

If this threshold is deemed to be appropriate for Category A students (to be 'bright' enough to study the IB), surely the same threshold could be used for Siblings, i.e. they don't 'just' need to pass the Kent test, but need to score 40 marks higher than the pass score...

OP posts:

SheilaFentiman · 21/10/2024 17:05

OP considers anyone speculating on his/her individual interest in DGS to be committing a personal attack. So this is not about OP, but a theoretical Mrs X.

Mrs X has two sons, one already in secondary and one, let's say, in Year 5. She does not live in Kent but on the Bexley side of the border. At the time DS1 applied to DGS, there was no sibling preference but the OOC number of places was equal to the Kent number of places, so DS1 did well and got in.

Now things have changed, DS2 has a lower chance of getting in with fewer OOC places and now Mrs X thinks there should be a sibling preference inserted to the criteria (one assumes Mrs X wasn't campaigning for this beforehand, but perhaps one is unfair).

Failing that, Mrs X wants the criteria going back towards more OOC places, or the catchment area to be redrawn to the better advantage of the Bexley area.

Any similarities between Mrs X and persons living or dead is entirely coincidental.

Araminta1003 · 21/10/2024 16:58

OP when you are asking about sibling criteria do you actually think anyone passing the Kent test should get into Dartford? What do you actually mean?

Because I can tell you that a pass alone will find IB a struggle. So if the school has been run with kids with 380 plus scores for a number of years and many with 395 plus OOC, the standard would drop if “pass” alone were let in. They may even have to reintroduce A levels. A state school can probably unlikely afford to run both A levels and IB at the same time.

SheilaFentiman · 21/10/2024 16:45

"This is what some people in this forum are claiming"

I don't think it's "some" people, OP: no one who has replied to you agrees with your interpretation of the Code.

TeenToTwenties · 21/10/2024 16:44

If the admissions code meant 'only' or 'purely' wouldn't it say so?

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 21/10/2024 16:37

Pincopalla · 21/10/2024 16:19

@BaronessEllarawrosaurus I disagree with this conclusion. This is what some people in this forum are claiming, but as far as I can see in the School Admissions Code, it is just the schools that use as ONLY criterion the test score (i.e. St Olave's) that are not allowed to use the sibling priority rule. DGS has catchment area, too, which means that they can use the sibling rule,

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The thing is though that all children are admitted via rankings even if they assign certain numbers to different sections, within that section they are ranked so distance isn't a category for oversubscripton that is solely on ranking

MavisTheMonkey · 21/10/2024 16:28

@Pincopalla re the funding, I think the key word in your argument is indirectly.

As far as I am aware the govt uses the national funding formula to distribute the funds to the local authority so for all practical purposes the LA are the body that the school needs to work with re funding.

Re your issue with the admissions criteria- have you discussed it with the school? I had an issue with Beths criteria a couple of years ago and discussed it with the head of admissions. In that case they admitted they had made a mistake and revised the criteria.

Original poster

Pincopalla · 21/10/2024 16:21

NeverDropYourMooncup · 21/10/2024 15:57

They don't have to have one. They could choose to if there isn't the ranking that would make it illegal, but presumably this school wants to recruit the brightest in the area over and above less able younger siblings.

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@NeverDropYourMooncup Of course they don't have to, but they chose to. DGS could also choose to allow the sibling rule. If they wanted the brightest students, they would have not reduced the OOC intake from 90 to 50 places.

OP posts:

Original poster

Pincopalla · 21/10/2024 16:19

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 21/10/2024 15:44

If I'm reading it right the fact they rank within the categories (which my local grammar also does) means they are excluded from being able to apply the sibling priority. Mine is catchment schools group a, catchment schools group b then everyone else but a, b and c are all ranked within those categories and it's that ranking which means sibling priority is not allowed.

@BaronessEllarawrosaurus I disagree with this conclusion. This is what some people in this forum are claiming, but as far as I can see in the School Admissions Code, it is just the schools that use as ONLY criterion the test score (i.e. St Olave's) that are not allowed to use the sibling priority rule. DGS has catchment area, too, which means that they can use the sibling rule,

OP posts:

Original poster

Pincopalla · 21/10/2024 16:16

MavisTheMonkey · 21/10/2024 15:04

I have a couple of friends who teach at DGS and my understanding (which is gossip and Chinese whispers based) is that the admissions was changed because the LA and KCC didn't see that the school was sufficiently serving Kent children and pressured the school to make the changes.

Also anecdotally apparently due to the high proportion of students commuting in from a wide distance there is a lack of community and parental support for extracurricular activities.

As a school that is located in and funded by Kent, I think it's reasonable that children in Kent wards are given priority, the same as Wilmington does - and I say this as someone based in Bexley who is geographically closer to Wilmington than I am to Bexley Grammar or Chis and Sid.

@MavisTheMonkey Schools are funded centrally by the Government (out of general taxation), not by Local Authorities, out of Council Tax. Anyone paying taxes in the UK is (indirectly) funding schools in Kent, or elsewhere in the country.

OP posts:

NeverDropYourMooncup · 21/10/2024 15:57

Pincopalla · 01/09/2024 21:58

@TickingAlongNicely That is not correct.

Bexley Grammar, Chis & Sid, Townley, Beths, Wilmington Grammar, Wilmington Grammar for Girls: these are all relatively local to DGS / DGSG and they all have a sibling priority rule.

Thanks.

They don't have to have one. They could choose to if there isn't the ranking that would make it illegal, but presumably this school wants to recruit the brightest in the area over and above less able younger siblings.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 21/10/2024 15:44

If I'm reading it right the fact they rank within the categories (which my local grammar also does) means they are excluded from being able to apply the sibling priority. Mine is catchment schools group a, catchment schools group b then everyone else but a, b and c are all ranked within those categories and it's that ranking which means sibling priority is not allowed.