Yearly warning not to take A-level maths with less than a 7 at GCSE

We are not actually accepting anyone onto maths A-level this year if they don’t have a grade 8 or 9. So for us it is not really a question of positive or negative to them, it is more telling them that they have not met the admission requirements. This though is not a surprise to them - I told my GCSE class last year regularly that if they wanted to do A-level they would need a grade 8.

We are a grammar school and well over 100 students take maths A-level each year. Whether we are correct to have the grade 8 cut off is a tricky question - in our experience it makes kids really push themselves at GCSE to try to get the grade 8 and this makes them better prepared for A-level. It also weeds out some who are going to really struggle. We also have less teaching time allocated to A-level then the majority of schools (less teaching time means harder to support someone with weak algebra).

In terms of positive, once anyone is on the course I am extremely positive with them. But before someone begins the course or if someone is wobbling during the first couple of weeks, I am completely honest with them. I actually think being honest is best: it would be irresponsible to tell them that maths A-level is something that it isn’t.

I don’t think you were being serious about us not knowing what scores our students get in tests as teachers. Knowing someone’s GCSE result in maths helps us know how much support they will need! This is really important for a teacher to know.

Ive followed this from the start and completely agree how big a jump it is from GCSE to A level. Ds has always been good at maths, but struggled with the accuracy needed in his GCSEs and came out with a mid 8. Definitely no blood, sweat and tears to get that 8 though. So many of his peers have struggled at A level. I would say especially those who put in a huge amount of effort to get their 8 or 9 at GCSE. So that’s what I would look at. Ds got an A star at A level. Very happy because he didn’t do Further Maths because he didn’t think he was good enough

Even more important that teachers are careful when they communicate with students.

Might not apply to you but from my experience today, perhaps being a bit more positive towards students with a 7 who would like to do A level maths. Of course people want and should have access to this information discussed here but we all know there are different ways of conveying this information. Some more positive than others.

Perhaps not knowing your students GCSE score would be a good thing? I’ve often thought that myself as a teacher. I’m sure you try your best and I really don’t mean to offend but I’m just disappointed at what I saw today - when they should have been elated at getting a 7. I appreciate this may not be typical of maths departments.

I have literally no idea what point you are making. Of course I am aware of the Pymalion study, but what specific relevance is it here? What are you suggesting I should do differently in the context of maths A-level?

Are you suggesting that I should not know that GCSE maths scores and A-Level maths scores correlate? Or that I should not know the GCSE maths scores of my students? Or that students should not be given information about how hard maths A-level is and how hard they will need to work at it?

True but this is not what was happening - they were being advised that it was not a good choice and would be too hard...that is not the same as saying you will need to work really hard to keep up and achieve top grades.

I'm not acting like this - there is well known research out there that shows the effect of teacher expectations on outcomes. Clearly, this is not always the case but it is a real phenomenon. I'm sure as a teacher you will have heard of the The Pygmalion effect

There isn’t a problem with maths A-level. In my opinion it is the correct balance between rigorous and accessible. Not everyone can succeed in maths A-level and that is ok.

Also - why are you acting like it is what the teacher believes that causes a student’s result? It is how hard the student works and how able they are for the most part that is relevant to their success.

Yes I appreciate that - what I was discussing in my earlier posts today is my experience today with a head of maths talking students with 7's at GCSE off doing the A level - now this may be unique to my daughter's school - but I'm concerned it might not be...

D's went from a 7 to an A at A-level.

But.
He didn't work for GCSE
He has health issues so was missing a certain amount of background maths as his attendance was around 80% typically.
We have 2 people with a maths degree (me and dd1) and dh who is very up on A-level maths to help at home.
Because of that we knew that it wouldn't be beyond him.

It took a lot of work.

His maths teacher wasn't good. He didn't like her ( with a certain amount of good reason - I'd describe some of the emails I saw as the best you could say about them was they were unprofessional) so didn't put any effort in. Maths teacher screwed up his mocks. All three, ( year 12, November and February) in different ways.
He got D/E in them.

So dd1 started weekly sessions with him with homework. The first few he took with bad grace, and we wondered if there was any point. He started doing papers and going over them. By Easter, his typical score on a paper was between 15 and 30.
We wondered if this was it. There seemed to be no improvement. He didn't write enough, he'd look at questions and decide he didn't like the topic and do nothing, even though he knew how to answer the first bit.
Then start of May he jumped to scoring in the 40s. We were relieved that there was some improvement, and wondered if we'd reached his ability level.
Then about a fortnight before his first paper dd asked me if he'd done the paper in his room and maybe googled the answers. He hadn't, but had scored 62. He did three more papers that week, all scoring in the 60s. Then the next week managed a 70.
For the real paper one He scored 80!

Paper two he did less well at. His favourite subject didn't come up At all on either paper, and his least favourite came up twice.

At that point we'd done no applied. He did quite like mechanics, but the first paper he did was scored less than 20. So again we had a huge push and the week before he scored in the 40s. We concentrated on showing him how to look through the questions and pick out marks he could get. Didn't have too much hope of a good score, especially as he had a bit of a messed up week ( was performing in a large performance all days he didn't have an exam. Performances were 10-3.30 and he was tired, there were a lot of stress with various things there and I didn't think his head would be in the exam.)
He scored in the 60s for the real thing.

I had real hopes he might get a C, or even scrape a B, although I thought that was a little ambitious.

I think dd1 shrieked louder than for her results when she saw he had an A!I

But it was not easy. If he'd worked hard all the way through, then it would have been better. But if he'd been getting solid Cs then I don't thing we'd have pushed it. He was improving so rapidly when he did the exams, that I wonder if he'd had another month, then he would have been scraping an A*.

If it hasn't been for the people at home able to help he wouldn't have been able to do it. It was huge amount of work, and I was so proud of him for rising to it - and showing that work pays off.
But I wouldn't recommend it to anyone as it could have been a disaster.

If the teachers has the belief that the students with grade 7's are on track to attain E and D grades in A level - as the evidence you provided suggests this does lead itself towards self-fulfilling prophecy.

Also what your saying also suggests that there is a problem with the qualification or maths GCSE if a student who attained an A grade at GCSE can't access the A level and will struggle from the get go - this is not the case in other A levels from my experience - I wait to be told otherwise.

On your first point, anecdotally I think the jump from GCSE to A level has been hard in English Lit too. But perhaps that is school specific. But, only anecdotally.

I am very interested by your second point. My daughter has several friends who started out doing double maths, with either one or two other subjects, and dropped a subject. In every case they dropped something else and stuck with the further maths. I think the drop out rate from FM is quoted as quite high, but the number I'd be interested in comparing it to is the number of students who drop A.N.Other subject while keeping double maths. My suspicion - and I have no data to back it up - is it's not just the 0.1% maths geniuses who find maths, even further maths, easier to see through than say art, or history, or biology when things get tough. But the other subjects they are dropping get dissipated through an eclectic mix of subject buckets, and we don't see the underlying pattern of students choosing to stick with their Maths and FM over one of their other subjects/subject.

I am not convinced that any subject is objectively the hardest. The whole point of A levels is you get to specialise in what suits you surely. Some students are generalists who could pick and succeed in lots of subjects, but there are others who are not maths savants but who still finds maths or Physics a more digestible A level than, say, English lit. I believe Physics has a high drop out rate, but again I wonder if that is partly because it pairs so well with double maths, and is more often taken as one of 4 instead of one of 3. It's pretty rare for students taking eg English and History to even attempt 4. And dropping from 4 to 3 has vastly fewer consequences than dropping from 3 to 2. I massively lack data on all of this though - maybe there just aren't enough double mathematicians for any of my ramblings to make sense.

😱

Generally if a student has weak algebra they will really struggle with A-level maths. It is pretty unusual, but if a student had been lazy for GCSE but was naturally able at algebra and determined to work hard at A-level, then perhaps they can make a success of maths A-level. Obviously, the data shows that this is pretty unusual.

I don’t think it is really my mindset that impacts the grades of my students. I think it is how hard they work and to a limited extent how well I teach.

Is your DS1 glad he did this subject?

As my point is people like your DS1 are being talked out of doing the A level when they can do extremely well and that's a shame.

My daughter got around the same results. She went on to get two Distinctions in L3 BTECs for Psychology and Business Studies (Distinctions have the same UCAS values as As) and a C in A Level Geography (results last week). There are so many options and lots of kids don't do A Levels as there not right for them

@ErrolTheDragon I think if it is an A level and the jump is bigger from GCSE math to A level maths, than let's say the jump from English GCSE to English A level you could argue, quite reasonably that something is a) wrong with the GCSE or b) wrong the A level. As the qualifications ought to be of similar level of difficulty if they are the same level of qualification.

@Pythag while I agree, what I am concerned about is how do you know if that student with a 7 is going to struggle at A level or be one of the exceptions that actually attains higher than suggested- as noted some do? With all this talk about students with 7's more likely to attain E and D at maths A level - how much of that may be impacted by the mindset of the teachers?

Why sad? To me seeing students really struggle with maths A-level and not enjoy it - is more sad! Dissuading some students from maths A-level can be kind to them!

DS1 got a mid 7 at GCSE Maths pre COVID, he sweated blood and tears and got a B at A level Maths. Very hard work.

Just realised, that last post I thought I was on a different thread, the one comparing stem vs humanities grades.