Yearly warning not to take A-level maths with less than a 7 at GCSE

I know this is old, but if you are around @noblegiraffe what is your source. Am after similar for other subjects. Thanks!

Thanks @noblegiraffe that's actually a really useful way of thinking about it if DD decides she wants to do the exam - there's such a disparity in teaching that it's very unlikely any university would question why an applicant has a 'low' grade at FM GCSE and a high predicted grade at A-level maths (and/or A-level Further Maths). I worry about her spending a lot of time revising for GCSE FM - there are more important things for her to be spending time on than an 11th GCSE (even if only taking a break!).

I agree, and as I said above, 6th form colleges here don't seem to look at whether students did it - my DS1 got offers from all 5 places he applied to do A level Maths and Further Maths without having done it at A level - we're in North London - those include Woodhouse College which is quite high in national league tables, and the local (2nd branch) of London Academy of Excellence - which I don't like the sound of at all, but it does have a good reputation among some teachers and students. In the end he chose one of the expanded 6th forms that's part of a highly rated school on the other side of our borough. I think at degree level, doing A level FM probably does matter, but it didn't make a difference in to him being accepted on to an A level course. He had a slightly wobbly start in sixth form but I think that was down to being a bit distracted at that point, and he really got down to working hard and made up for it from January onwards.

At my sons school they're doing it after school on Mondays and Tuesday as there isn't enough time to fit it in!

I did also notice when DS1 got GCSE results in summer 2023, from the marks breakdown and boundary information, one thing I did notice is that to get 9 at GCSE, in his year, students had to get a much higher level of of marks for Maths than in any of the sciences - there was a 28 mark range across that to Maths grade, equal to 95-100% - DS1 was in the middle of that range (14 marks lost across 3 papers). Whereas in Triple Science, he got 9s with marks between 70 and 80% - I think high, mid and low 70s. In other subjects, he came out with a 7 in Religious Studies (chosen by him as a rumoured "easy" option, don't think it was true) on a higher percentage of marks than in his Sociology grade 8.

His sixth form prepares the students in the one FM class intensively (double lesson time etc) for Maths A level exams at the end of year 12 and then FM in year 13.

So he's making UCAS applications (for Maths) with one A* A level in hand. He also attended extra classes at a private school, offered to top students from a number of state sixth forms, and a couple of summer holiday things, a day school at UCL and a summer school at the private school. DS1 is clearly very keen to go for somewhere with a prestigious reputation, where I'm a bit sceptical about how some of these things are judged

DSThe extra exam for Oxford applications didn't go well for him and I suspect he's not going to be offered an interview - he hasn't told me whether he's heard one way or the other yet - I will ask at some point but it's a bit of a sensitive topic. But he has two conditional offers from RG universities which clearly use the early app process to attract high achieving and ambitious students (for example a special open day for early applicants who've also applied to Oxbridge, with an interview to determine the conditions of an offer rather than whether they will make one), that he likes and I think he could be happy and do well at either.

Ah yes we've both said how we like being able to work our from first principles and it gets to a point where you can't do that.

The 6th formers told her biology was just rotw learning.

She wanted to do physics maths and chemistry but with scraping a 7 in physics she's now considering psych with maths and chem.

She loves all the subjects but also wants to aim for A grades. They put so much pressure on themselves 😬.

I remember when a B in a subject at gcse was considered a good grade....

Honestly what I found hardest about A level chemistry was the sheer amount of rote learning you have to do (particularly for organic chemistry).

It took me getting a C in my mocks to accept that yes, I really did need to sit down and learn all of this off by heart like times tables, and there really wasn’t a shortcut or secret way to work it out from first principles (I was bright but very used to not having to work or revise much to get full marks)

On Further Maths GCSE, my DS1 is now in year 13 so started it at the beginning of year 10, after school classes, but dropped out after a few weeks. I think this was timing, after two spells of lockdown, lessons from home etc, and also more lessons from home after the second lockdown because of teacher shortages for COVID and after effects type medical reasons, he was glad to get back to school but really wanted to enjoy being able to spend time after school with friends in person again.

Maths remained his favourite subject and he got offers from all 5 6th form applications (GCSEs at a 7-11 secondary school so everyone has to move on elsewhere) to study Maths, FM, Physics and Philosophy - 4 A levels and Further Maths so needed 7s in most subjects to study 4 A levels, 7/8 for Maths, 7 for Physics and an essay subject. One required an average of 7.5 across 8 best GCSEs (out of 9). So colleges and sixth forms, even two marketed as for high achievers/ambitious students and slightly more selective, didn't seem to be concerned about Further Maths even for students applying to do it at A level.

It's funny how schools do it differently. She's in a Grammar school so they're all "top set" but further maths is only done as an after school/lunchtime extra.

Her physics mock is the worst of them all (just scraped a 7) so now she wants to ditch physics! I guess there's a few weeks to decide.

In my DS maths class they start further maths this term.

Agreed, DS is at a Welsh medium comprehensive school.

I should perhaps have added that DD2 went to a secondary modern so this dilemma over FM GCSE isn't unique to top schools.

Interesting how the schools all do it differently!

In our school the top 2 sets sat maths GCSE in June of year 10 and November of year 11 leaving plenty of time to cover additional maths after that to sit in June of year 11.

DS got all A*s and a distinction in additional maths and has said it’s made the transition to a level maths pretty easy as there’s been a fair bit of overlap so far.

Interesting discussion about FM GCSE. If it helps anyone, DD2 did this, and did Statistics GCSE too (so has 3x maths GCSEs). She knew she didn't want to take maths at A level but did want to do 3x science subjects and felt that having maths slightly beyond normal GCSE might be useful both for her university application and for the broader knowledge in itself.

Just having a quick skim read - is core maths only available in England?

DD predicted 8/9 in maths, has always been top set throughout school but is worried about a level as has found it harder to wrap her around some concepts this year

Yeah for DD the work is in class - the top set seems to get accelerated through the standard GCSE curriculum. So in theory she can do the content, but not the exam. Not sure how it works if I say she doesn't want to do it at all - potentially has to go down a set. I'm sure she'll involve the content but doubt she'll enjoy having to revise for and take another exam! So far I haven't found any benefit to her of taking the exam, so I'm minded to say she does the course but doesn't sit the exam.

Her idea does sound like it'd suit her better.
Tbh the way her school is doing it seems a bit odd to me (maybe it's not, I'm not an expert!) - iirc DDs school did it over a longer period just one twilight class a week, they let anyone in the top two or three sets try it and drop out if they didn't take to it.

I think my duaghter would enjoy it if she wasn't giving up a lunch time and an after school session as it is in our school. It also starts now just after mocks and runs between now and exams. She's ND and needs the down time as down time, especially after am the heightened stress around mocks. I'm sure if it was part of the course or she wasn't doing 10 already she'd do it.

She would like doing the actual maths so she has suggetaed she works through it in the summer between gcse and A level.

Reducing down to 3 is very hard at 15! And yes doing 4 with an option to drop would work well...

IDK, but I can't imagine an 8 being viewed negatively - afaik unis don't really distinguish between 8 and 9 anyway. It'd show the applicant was into maths at that stage. Also, I'd guess there's a bit of extra variability on fm grades because the amount of teaching for it isn't uniform.

To be sure if an extra maths exam is a source of stress liable to impact other subjects then probably bad idea. The types I'm thinking it's more likely to benefit may even quite enjoy it.

I think the problem I see if that even if you are very strong at maths, I don't think anyone is ever guaranteed a 9 at FM GCSE. I'm concerned about an 8 (or lower) coming across as a negative for university applications, whereas if they don't take it at all, no university knows it was even an option. Eg if you want to do maths at university and you have a 9 at GCSE, and a 7 at GCSE FM, will a university look at that and question whether an A* prediction at Alevel FM is over optimistic (because that candidate should have found GCSE FM easy).

I'm curious about how well a maths 'mock' at this stage maps to final grade - IME so much of the prep for maths exams is doing the past papers after completing the content.

Re gcse fm - perhaps doing the exam and getting the grade may be more valuable to someone who is much stronger on stem than the other subjects than it is to an all-rounder? If they end up aiming for one of the (few) unis where GCSEs figure in the selection process I suppose it might make a difference?

@majesticallyopposite - I am not sure because in the schools my DC attended it is simply normal to do it if in the top set in Maths. So most of the kids are competitive and want to do it. Some are already thinking ahead to Maths step papers, for example. And are comfortably achieving high grades in most other subjects. I think the way different schools approach this really varies. Some go with what the child wants, others are more focussed on achieving as many high grades as possible across all subjects taken.
If your DC wants to study Maths at uni, and knows which target unis already, perhaps ask them if relevant for their type school and background.

Or if they may want to change school for Sixth Form, look at the entrance criteria. For example, for some it is only top 8 subject points included.
It is very difficult to comment in a vacuum. I would be child led primarily. It can be difficult to tell in Year 10 how they will be coping half way through Year 11 with the whole work load. Especially content heavy subjects like history and the 3 sciences.

@Araminta1003 Do you think the exam is worth doing, or just studying the course? Asking because I have always struggled to see the benefit of doing the extra (and hard) exam on top of the general revision load for GCSE. I absolutely see the benefit of studying the content, but wondering if I'm missing something and having the qualification itself is of value in some way as opposed to having more time during exam season to focus on other subjects.

DD is doing 10 GCSEs, and will be offered FM (which will take it to 11) - she's in year 10 so school says hard to be sure what her prediction will be for GCSE Maths (they haven't started testing the level 8/9 content yet) but realistically no reason she wouldn't be capable of a 9. School has said she can go to the classes but not take the exam and I'm thinking doing the exam(s?) would just add additional stress at an already stressful time.

One change I find really interesting is eons ago when I was at school, basically no one did FM A-level as one of three a-levels. That seems to have entirely changed now but I worry that it means that students studying A-level FM no longer have the option to drop it. I did A-level FM and it was hard. I did get an A (when that was the top grade) but I had to work for it in a way I didn't have to for the rest of my a-levels. I honestly walked an A* at GCSE. The jump from GCSE to A-level maths is still one of the hardest academic leaps I've ever done and (noting this comment is late now so this is one for next year!), really urge people encourage their kids to do transition work.