A-Levels choices - do we add maths or not?

Stats being useful for people doing humanities is exactly why Core Maths was created. It's basically no algebra, with real world stuff like financial maths and statistics.

It's only half an A-level equivalent and is designed to be taken alongside 3 A-levels.

Oh and doing it as a 4th a-level would be madness. If she wants to do maths she needs to drop Latin or Politics.

I can't answer for journalism, but I completely disagree that a-levels maths is of use as a lawyer. I agree there is demand for people who can both write and who are good with numbers. I disagree that there's a need for a-level maths to signal you're 'good with numbers' or that there's anything in the a-level mats syllabus that is at all relevant to the type of numerical ability that is useful for a lawyer.

Things like understanding how %s works is GCSE maths and she's on for a 9 there so clearly gets the basics.

Unless she really wants to do maths a-level, I wouldn't - it sounds like it will be hard work for her and she's likely to come out with a lower grade than she might in other subjects. The step up between GCSE maths and a-level maths was the biggest academic jump I've ever done (and (without wanting to sound like an arse, but I probably do!) I didn't need to work for my A* at GCSE (or A at A-level, FM A-level was a slog for an A though)).

I do see benefit in statistics for history though, but not enough for her to change a-level choices unless she wants to and if she has decent maths ability she can pick up stats pretty easily if she needs to during her degree (stats isn't particularly hard, it's just learning the concepts).

DS got a 9 in maths, 7 in FM and has found A-level maths tough, I'm keeping my fingers crossed for at least a B now, with the huge jump in grade boundaries last year. I wouldn't recommend it as a 4th A-level unless she really loves it, it's just going to be an unnecessary slog.

Interesting post OP!

My dd1 is also going into Y11 and thinking of a similar combination of A Levels.

She currently has in mind:

1. Maths
2. Further Maths
3. Politics
4. Sociology or History

She is not sure about the Further Maths yet, or which one to go for out of Sociology or History. But I think Maths and Politics look very likely choices for her.

She will find out more at the 6th form Open Evenings and when she has predicted grades from her Y11 mocks.

I wouldn't add Maths.
If she wants to do Maths I would replace one of the others with it. There's no particular value to having 4 A levels in terms of University applications, unless the 4th is Further Maths and you're headed in a mathematical direction. For the vast majority of people 3 good grades at A level will open more doors than 4 lower ones and it is a real possibility that you will drop grades if you're overstretched. In the days when you did AS levels at the end of year 12 so there was a qualification even if you dropped a subject at that point it made a bit more sense, but since AS and A levels were decoupled I think the risks of attempting 4 far outweigh the benefits. Several of my DC's friends started with 4 and dropped one fairly quickly but even by that stage they were on the back foot with the other 3 because they had over stretched themselves and under estimated the workload compared to GCSE. The only pupils I know who have successfully managed 4 in recent years have had FM as the 4th apart from one very talented musician who did music as a 4th and someone who did their native language. Doing 4, disparate, academic A levels would be a big ask and it doesn't really add anything to your CV.
Personally, I probably wouldn't do maths unless she really loves it or really needs it. Both my sons were in the latter category and they probably worked nearly as hard on maths as their other 2 A levels put together. Unless they are naturally very talented I think most people find Maths A level a challenge and it's not something that would be easy to tag onto A levels that will be demanding in their own right.

Even if she were to go into law or journalism, there is massive demand for people who can both write well AND make sense of numbers.

"Making sense of numbers" is something that numerate people can do. A Level maths won't particularly help with this.
(I did a maths degree and got rather fed up of thinking that it must be about times tables of large numbers).

Ermm....I know those things and did not do maths. That's numeracy!

Think of the mistakes that politicians make saying they want "everyone to be above average" or not knowing the difference between a % increase and actual increase. Or not knowing that falling inflation does not mean prices go down.

Having maths-stats A level makes you more confident to read, understand and talk about stats and that is valuable in many fields.

Even as a banking lawyer in the magic circle you only need the most basic of numeracy skills (getting the commas in the right place on a multi billion pound loan document or the correct basis points for the interest rate). The really tricky number stuff is done by the accountants and financial advisors on big transactions.

Unless your DC is a natural mathematician, and fantastic grades will follow, I would counsel against doing maths with the hope it will help secure a training contract or material advantage in the legal world.

Could you think beyond the history degree (sixth form teacher here)? Where do they see that going? There are a lot of history grads out there.

It’s not just about the degree - it’s about the pathway. When they will come out with £60,000 of debt, it has to be worthwhile and lead somewhere.

So a broader range at A level can offer further options later. You say Latin ~ are they a language buff that might be better suited to a modern language? History and politics do seem quite similar to me ~ if not maths, then economics?

I’d think about the long term and well done that child for being perceptive enough to challenge their own choices.

So I'm going to go against the grain here and argue that yes she should take maths. It is an incredibly useful subject. Even if she were to go into law or journalism, there is massive demand for people who can both write well AND make sense of numbers.

Maths with stats is particularly relevant for anything related to humanities. Think about adding up who died of what in archeology or making sense of the economy in journalism.

Maths is useful in all these.

Maths is a big step up GCSE to A Level. If she's unlikely to study anything that actually uses advanced maths, her first choice combo is fine. Ultimately, take subjects enjoy, are good at, and get you where you want to be.

My child got a 9 for GCSE maths. They then did the A-level. They really struggled. We had to pay for extra tutoring and they managed to get an A grade in the end. It was actually not worth it. They were much more inclined to humanities and essay writing. Got A stars in the other humanities.

They felt they needed to do maths to try and seem ‘clever’. Their logic. Not ours. It was the wrong decision and a very stressful waste of energy and affected their overall confidence.

Something I caught on a recent Radio4 Programme - the Latin historians of 2000ish years ago had a totally different philosophy of history to us. They had no allegiance to the idea of neutrally establishing facts and truth. A history was a work created for the purpose of moral education, so they were perfectly happy to make up all sorts of details about the events they were writing about if it supported the ethical narrative they wanted to build. That must introduce a huge difference in how History and ClassCiv treat their source analysis (without making either "more rigorous")

History is not “more rigorous” than Classical Civilisation in terms of source analysis!

They are both equally rigorous and if her DD is more interested in Ancient History than repeating European history from Renaissance to Cold War, then this will be more interesting and give her a chance to study sources in the original Latin.

It is also the A level preferred if going on to do an ancient history or a classics uni degree. The DD is taking A level Latin- that indicates a possible interest in ancient history (not British history)

https://www.ocr.org.uk/qualifications/as-and-a-level/classical-civilisation-h008-h408-from-2017/

This is bad advice given that OP’s child wants to do History. History is more rigorous in terms of source analysis etc and it would be bonkers not to do it regardless of the periods they are interested in. They could substitute politics for Class Civ.

Solid set of A levels for a History degree. Maths absolutely not necessary.

No to a 4th A level. It’s not needed and even the top Uni’s only look at the top 3 A levels for entry. It’s a waste to do 4 A levels.

Seeing Latin listed, is your DD leaning towards ancient history & classics? Fan of the Romans?

If so, consider taking the Classical Civilisation A level instead of History or Politics. The History A levels go nowhere near Romans.

As a maths teacher I would say no to adding Maths to that combo of A-levels. Those A-levels will require a lot of reading and coursework, to add a 4th A-level, not because she needs it for what she wants to do, but because she thinks it will look good will more likely just cause her massive amounts of stress and potentially lower marks overall.

Generally students who take 4 A levels take Maths and Further Maths as two of them as they are good enough at maths that the workload of A level maths is less than for other students so they can cope better.

I would stick to the three that she has chosen.

I would say yes to adding maths if she is academic, ambitious and hard working. A grade 9 ar maths GCSE (even with help) is a good basis for beginning maths A-level.

Maths A-level is a truly beautiful subject, requiring hard work and logical precise thinking and clear arguments. It will complement her other A-levels and she will find the contrast (particularly when it comes to revision) a bonus.

I don’t recommend core maths for her as it is less academic (and in her words, a bit “basic”). Core maths is relevant to people who enjoy maths (but are not capable of doing well at maths A-level) or people who need more maths to complement other A-levels (eg those taking psychology or biology), but she is not in either of these categories.

If she finds maths A-level too much, she can drop it. But if she doesn’t start it, she can’t really pick it up from October onwards.

Agree with @Piggywaspushed, specialising in public health is much better done at Masters level – and fwiw one of the best places in the world to do that is at LSHTM if your DD fancied a year in London after her under-graduate degree.

My DD had to do quite a lot of epidemiology in her Masters (which is very stats-based) and although she did maths, further maths and stats GCSEs, she didn't take it beyond that level.