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VAT and Bursary impact

288 replies

tam255 · 02/08/2024 13:49

For some parents in London on a reasonable income who can’t afford to buy in the catchment of a good/ outstanding school, sending to a private school with partial fee assistance/ bursary is the next best option.

Often these big private schools in London in fact often support the state sector, local schools in their area with use of facilities, pools, drama studios etc and are very generous indeed even with teaching staff, Saturday schools etc supporting local schools. This important fact just seems to be forgotten.

As for the student intake, in fact in London most of the private schools have more diversity than the superselective Grammar schools!! Getting a place into a superselective Grammar school for a child in London requires deep pockets. A bright child who cannot afford all the numerous tutors and mock classes etc has no chance of getting through a superselective grammar school and if you can’t afford to live in the catchment area of a good comprehensive will miss out there too.

The reality is that, if a child on a part bursary is in primary school yes, you could have an option to move to a state school at some point. However if a child on a part bursary say is in private secondary school yr 9 onwards ( where subject choices etc have been made) it’s going to be impossible to just change them to the state sector till sixth form.

Yes, there will always be millionaires and billionaires in the private schools but also a lot of parents who are covered partially with bursary’s. With all the vat added it will impact the bursaries which is sad and more importantly the support the private schools offer to the local state schools around in their catchment.

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twistyizzy · 04/08/2024 10:22

Boater · 04/08/2024 10:20

50% of independent schools do not have charitable status.

They are still not for profit

Boater · 04/08/2024 10:22

twistyizzy · 04/08/2024 10:16

Oh you mean like state academies?

Yes which is why some schools groups run both independent schools and academies.

PeachSalad · 04/08/2024 10:22

Boater · 04/08/2024 10:20

50% of independent schools do not have charitable status.

Yeah because the rest have " not for profit" status instead of " charity".

Boater · 04/08/2024 10:20

PeachSalad · 04/08/2024 10:17

@Boater

However nevertheless they aren’t charities. As the multiple thousand deposits would evidence

I think the problem is that you use the word charity literally, whereas " not-for profit" and " charity" are business entities and as such referred in this discussion. For instance to maintain status of " charity". These business entities have a special tax codes. In essence they cannot exist for profit of any individuals and all income has to be either reinvested in school or donated ( charity) in the school activities, support to students if they have any surplus. These entities have annual independent accountant audit and their finance sheets are publicly available

50% of independent schools do not have charitable status.

PeachSalad · 04/08/2024 10:20

@Boater

It’s easy enough not make a profit btw. You just have a hefty management charge for central support costs such as admin, finance, HR, marketing, educational materials development etc.

Yes, that is correct.

PeachSalad · 04/08/2024 10:17

@Boater

However nevertheless they aren’t charities. As the multiple thousand deposits would evidence

I think the problem is that you use the word charity literally, whereas " not-for profit" and " charity" are business entities and as such referred in this discussion. For instance to maintain status of " charity". These business entities have a special tax codes. In essence they cannot exist for profit of any individuals and all income has to be either reinvested in school or donated ( charity) in the school activities, support to students if they have any surplus. These entities have annual independent accountant audit and their finance sheets are publicly available

twistyizzy · 04/08/2024 10:16

Boater · 04/08/2024 10:13

So the examples posted above are….

It’s easy enough not make a profit btw. You just have a hefty management charge for central support costs such as admin, finance, HR, marketing, educational materials development etc.

Oh you mean like state academies?

twistyizzy · 04/08/2024 10:15

Boater · 04/08/2024 10:09

What is a ‘truly Indy’ school versus one owned by PE?

There are a number of Dukes schools not far from here. I doubt the parents of children attending them would consider they weren’t at independent schools.

However nevertheless they aren’t charities. As the multiple thousand deposits would evidence

Exactly the sort DD attends. Independent. No links to any other school. The chains are more London/SE centric with exception of GDST

Boater · 04/08/2024 10:13

PeachSalad · 04/08/2024 10:09

Please read UK section here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/For-profit_education

Not " many" . It is not allowed in UK

So the examples posted above are….

It’s easy enough not make a profit btw. You just have a hefty management charge for central support costs such as admin, finance, HR, marketing, educational materials development etc.

Boater · 04/08/2024 10:09

What is a ‘truly Indy’ school versus one owned by PE?

There are a number of Dukes schools not far from here. I doubt the parents of children attending them would consider they weren’t at independent schools.

However nevertheless they aren’t charities. As the multiple thousand deposits would evidence

PeachSalad · 04/08/2024 10:09

Boater · 04/08/2024 10:06

I said many, not most.

Edited

Please read UK section here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/For-profit_education

Not " many" . It is not allowed in UK

For-profit education - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/For-profit_education

PeachSalad · 04/08/2024 10:06

twistyizzy · 04/08/2024 10:00

Well that's only going to intensify with VAT as truly indy schools will struggle to survive

They usually merge in such situation with other schools

Boater · 04/08/2024 10:06

twistyizzy · 04/08/2024 10:01

It's not splitting hairs it's fact. Kindly show me the data that says MOST are run by private equity companies

I said many, not most.

Boater · 04/08/2024 10:05

PeachSalad · 04/08/2024 09:57

@Boater Not what the internet says. Most are registered as not for profit or chairity entity

Edited

hwww.oakleycapital.com/our-companies/thomas-s-london-day-schools<a class="break-all" href="https://www.cognita.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://www.cognita.com

https://dukeseducation.com

Broadly 50% of private schools are not charities.

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twistyizzy · 04/08/2024 10:01

Boater · 04/08/2024 09:57

Shall we split hairs over the definition of some versus many?

It’s a sector that is consolidating under PE ownership.

It's not splitting hairs it's fact. Kindly show me the data that says MOST are run by private equity companies

twistyizzy · 04/08/2024 10:00

Boater · 04/08/2024 09:57

Shall we split hairs over the definition of some versus many?

It’s a sector that is consolidating under PE ownership.

Well that's only going to intensify with VAT as truly indy schools will struggle to survive

PeachSalad · 04/08/2024 09:57

@Boater Not what the internet says. Most are registered as not for profit or chairity entity

VAT and Bursary impact
Boater · 04/08/2024 09:57

twistyizzy · 04/08/2024 09:56

Some, not many

Shall we split hairs over the definition of some versus many?

It’s a sector that is consolidating under PE ownership.

twistyizzy · 04/08/2024 09:56

Boater · 04/08/2024 09:54

A massive proportion aren’t registered charities in the first place. Many are owned by Private Equity.

Some, not many

twistyizzy · 04/08/2024 09:55

Icepearl · 04/08/2024 09:46

Similar opportunities are available in most state schools. I don't know what you think happens in State schools but by and large, music teachers teach music and PE teachers teach PE. I teach maths, and have 3 students currently competing in different sports at international level, and around 30 out on a musical tour playing in different European cities. This is an average year. This is not even an unusual school in this respect.

Of course lots of elite sports men and women come from private schools. Because there is a correlation between the amount spent on education and the amount spent on extra curricular activities. Skiiing, tennis, etc, all very elitiest sport, and only for the rich. Look at more mainstream sport, like football, open to all income brackets, and you will find private schools very UNDER represented

Read my previous comments. 2 sports clubs offered at local state. I have never said NO state schools offer sports etc, I said our local state secondary doesn't. The issue is lack of equality in the state sector which push parents into private. Getting a good state school is a postcode lottery
Elite sportspeople frequently come from private schools because they are there on sports scholarships

Boater · 04/08/2024 09:54

PeachSalad · 04/08/2024 09:46

Yes but registered as not for profit entity. Meaning all surplus money have to be reinvested in the school rather than any school owner profeteering from it. Many UK businesses run on a similar principle: all industry associations, institutes etc.

A massive proportion aren’t registered charities in the first place. Many are owned by Private Equity.

PeachSalad · 04/08/2024 09:51

@Icepearl
Of course lots of elite sports men and women come from private schools. Because there is a correlation between the amount spent on education and the amount spent on extra curricular activities.

I also thought so but I happened to visit this year county Sports Day. Top of the sporty kids from the local state and private schools ( and here in Richmond we have many of those) were competing. And I cannot say that privates school kids were any better than those from state schools. It very much surprised me.

Icepearl · 04/08/2024 09:50

Boater · 04/08/2024 09:16

The training is for profit. The funds are then invested in the school hence the school overall is not for profit.

So holding out that independent schools are running these training hubs from the goodness of their hearts is rubbish. They make money from it to use as they wish in their own schools.

They are not even GOOD training hubs. State schools do it far better, and a far higher percentage are training hubs, and they are far far better to have on your CV once you have trained.

PeachSalad · 04/08/2024 09:46

Icepearl · 04/08/2024 09:40

They are businesses.

Yes but registered as not for profit entity. Meaning all surplus money have to be reinvested in the school rather than any school owner profeteering from it. Many UK businesses run on a similar principle: all industry associations, institutes etc.

Icepearl · 04/08/2024 09:46

twistyizzy · 04/08/2024 08:59

"the sports teams, the choir, playing in the music ensembles at national competitions etc. They definitely would not get those opportunities at the private school"
What you have listed are exactly the reasons that many choose indy schools, because those aren't available in their local state schools. That's why many of our top athletes go to Indy schools on sports scholarships. DDs Indy school has produced 8 England Rugby team members and multiple England Test cricket players as just 2 examples. DD has travelled with the school choir to sing at Ely, Durham and York cathedrals and sung at the Sage in Gateshead. Those opportunities wouldn't have been available in any of the local state schools

Similar opportunities are available in most state schools. I don't know what you think happens in State schools but by and large, music teachers teach music and PE teachers teach PE. I teach maths, and have 3 students currently competing in different sports at international level, and around 30 out on a musical tour playing in different European cities. This is an average year. This is not even an unusual school in this respect.

Of course lots of elite sports men and women come from private schools. Because there is a correlation between the amount spent on education and the amount spent on extra curricular activities. Skiiing, tennis, etc, all very elitiest sport, and only for the rich. Look at more mainstream sport, like football, open to all income brackets, and you will find private schools very UNDER represented

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