VAT and Bursary impact

Thank you. What a kind thing to say Helpmymumplease.

I always say the same thing but I feel like I have some kind of duty to comment on these threads when people are dismissive about the need for private schools (with small class sizes). It’s just more complex than Labour are making out. Because there are so many families with different reasons for their kids being at a private school. And because kids with SEND are being failed left right and centre in the state system. (It’s not just kids with SEND but that’s just my personal area of experience.)

There are kids with all kinds of reasons to not be state schools and many of them aren’t from families that can easily afford to send them privately. I don’t think we’ve mentioned on the thread the alternative Steiner type schools that currently have fees about half to a third of the conventional private school costs, those schools will also be affected by the VAT liability.

This policy really isn’t promoting social justice in the way it seems to think it is.

re being able to register a secondary school as ‘for profit’ ..

you don’t have to register an independent school as anything regarding its profit/ non profit nature.

The rules are, you have to register an independent school with the DfE if providing full time education to a prescribed number of pupils of compulsory school age or one with an EHC plan, and once registered you must comply with the Independent School Standards Regulations 2014 as amended.

this is basically telling the DfE you intend to operate a school. Not registering, and operating as an independent school (in law) is an offence.

The 2014 regulations do not make any provision for charging, profit making or taking, or anything like that.

there are entirely separate provisions on state-funded schools charging fees and making a profit. These are in different primary legislation backed up by statutory guidance and are completely irrelevant here.

As my kids would say, 💯.

@EHCPerhaps im so sorry for what you’ve been through. It’s such an adversarial
system and I hope your application for an EHC plan and state funded provision for your child is successful.

I’m a parent with a DC now in private school after my DC had months out of school in state school due to unmet SEN need. I struggle with the fees cost as it is, let alone to pay 20% more. In this thread the posts earlier from parents who have had wonderful SEN support from their state school are lovely to see. But they absolutely do not reflect the experiences of many families of kids with SEND that I know of. Maybe these great experiences were a long time ago, before Tory cuts, or maybe their kids were not needing lots of support.

In any case those families were extremely lucky. So many families have SEN kids not in any kind of education. The system is broken.

This is an official verdict on today’s SEN education system in the UK: ‘utter disarray’.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/article/2024/aug/04/special-educational-needs-system-england-utter-disarray-ombudsman-amerdeep-somal

Here you are

https://eprints.whiterose.ac.uk/130803/1/forprofit.pdf

First UK for profit school was set up in 1910 btw

It’s extraordinary

I kind of feel we are banging our heads against a collective brick wall here 😂.

@PeachSalad if you want to believe this for any reason, then go right ahead.

For everyone else there is this great thing called google.

And I recon this article also says nonsense in your opinion or you just prefer to ignore it?
Evidence in statement on gov pages that UK allows to register a secondary school as a " for profit" entity, please? Otherwise, it is hot air from your side

And don't show me any separate entities as financial managment/ holdings. We are talking about school and how they can distribute their income.

They must own all those schools out of the goodness of their hearts.

It is a separate entitity to school. They only manage £££ because they have a chain of schools. They cannot use that money that is school income in any other way than invest in school, local community and that salaries for their work. School cannot be registered as " for profit" in UK. And the accounts have to be transparent.

I am sorry, I will pass because if somebody says that in UK private schools can be " for profit" organisations then is simply talking rubbish. Finding a difference between educational services such as holdings of groups of schools and the schools is also not a rocket science. Goodnight

The wikipedia article is factually incorrect.

Do you understand that some things written on the internet are not accurate? Just because Wikipedia says so, does not mean that it is actually the case. The Wikipedia article is wrong. Completely erroneous.

the weird Dukes/ ISC mishmash screenshot you keep repeating is very odd. Dukes is a for profit educational multinational. ISC is a council/ membership/ representative body that acts as the voice of around half of independent schools in England.

So what is still unclear? The private schools in UK are not legally allowed to be registered as " for profit". There are hundreds of thousands of organisations registered in UK as " charities" or " not for profit" that have income. The difference is in what is happening with the profit ( income- expenses). It cannot be given to the private hands and has to be invested in the business/ organisations. They even cannot keep too much ££ in holdings or banks and have to turn it to assets. They have annual financial audits. Jesus, this is basics knowledge of economy.

It’s the consolidated accounts for the group that owns the schools.

I’m going to repost my link to this article from schoolsweek as they’ve highlighted who owns a large number of specialist provisions. Whilst posters are correct upthread in that you can’t run a school for profit, you can clearly run one and the parent company can make a large profit.

https://schoolsweek.co.uk/how-investors-are-making-millions-from-the-bankrupt-send-system/

How difficult is it to understand that? Anybody had a macro or microeconomics at uni? Probably not

Both.

Ok..so in your opinion there are in UK private schools at a secondary school that are registered as " for profit" business entities?
How exactly they accomplished that if it is not allowed?
You copy pasted some trust, some holdings. We are talking about schools. Holdings have a role of " money reserve", act as a " bank" in a sense.

What I am sure of is that as other people have no idea what does " not for profit" as a business entity means and you are mistaking it with the common understanding of the word " profit".
Yes, private schools have income. But they are operating as a charity or " not for profit" entities. In UK a private secondary school would not be registered as a " for profit" organisation

The Independent School Council is a not for profit organisation.

That is what your picture says.

You’re not helping yourself.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/forprofit-schools-have-no-place-in-britain-says-tory-education-secretary-nicky-morgan-10257148.html 

Do you understand this article?

Do you understand the difference in not - for- profit business/ organisation entity and profit in common usage meaning income?

Private schools in Uk cannot be registered" for profit" and are either registered as"not for profit" or charities.

How difficult is it to understand that? Anybody had a macro or microeconomics at uni? Probably not

Yes. It is a not for profit organisation..Feeling better when you offend somebody?

Have you actually read the picture you’ve posted?

Google is not your friend here. It’s making you look a bit silly.

Here:

Dukes Education is a private company providing education for profit
They are not and have never been a charity

You say it’s the law. Point us to the relevant primary or secondary legislation, or relevant case law.

jesus wept.

@PeachSalad

You are so sure that UK private schools cannot make a profit. This is simply factually wrong and 10 minutes of googling will confirm this.

Please supply legislative provisions backing up your belief, or, failing that, the appropriate bits of the HMRC guidance.

also could you please explain exactly why private equity and sovereign wealth vehicles are bothering to put money into UK independent sector schools?