VAT and Bursary impact

I don’t think those outside the SEND space understand quite how difficult it is to obtain an EHCP. The school SENDCO and I spent months collecting evidence for dc’s application, the LA still refused to assess. Our options at that point were either enlist a SEND barrister at circa 20k per EHCP and prepare for a 12-14 month long legal battle or continue funding school fees as best as we can. We chose the latter.

Doubt very much anyone will get anywhere with this… especially given the huge number of SEN children in state school.

If a child has an EHCP then that’s a different issue. And I’m sure it will be argued that these SEN children should apply for a EHCP first to access private schools if they think this is the only school that can educate their child.

I have no idea of the answer to this, I am genuinely interested.

For those on bursaries at private schools, what kind of ballpark figure would VAT on the proportion of fees that they pay add each year?

We only have 1 private school in the whole of our county with only 250 pupils from age 2-18. 40 in the entire sixth form. Despite only being 6 miles away, I am not aware of any opportunities or support that it offers to local state schools. There are no private schools at all in 2 of our neighbouring counties.

My child has chosen to stay at state sixth form not just for the A levels but the other opportunities that they will get there - the sports teams, the choir, playing in the music ensembles at national competitions etc. They definitely would not get those opportunities at the private school.

Disabled children have the right to equity in education. And until the government provides adequate state settings that meet these children’s needs, then it could very well be argued that implementing VAT to children without EHCP’s is unlawful.

What a load of tripe.

The idea that we ought to tug our forelocks to private schools for so "generously" sharing their facilities/resources is honestly mind-boggling. Both my kids go to London comps. Our area is chocka with private schools. They're not open to our kids. On paper, they might claim this, that, and the other, but the reality is lip service at best. Private schools are businesses, end of. Let's stop pretending there's anything more than surface-deep "charity" to them. I'm so tired of these whinging threads.

Agree and well done for writing to your member of Parliament about this. The whole system for SEN needs looking at as from my experience it is not fit for purpose. State schools should be able to accommodate SEN children, it should not be necessary to send them private.

This is the same argument though that those parents are buying privilege for those children with SEN and if more parents were in the state sector there would be more pressure on the govt to provide the right provision for all.

I am going to write to my new MP and the new SoS for Education to explain my son’s experience of secondary so far and what the school have done to support his needs - as from what I hear from other parents of children with similar needs to his, many state secondaries are not doing this for them and many of them are being failed. I think many more kids like my son could successfully navigate state mainstream secondary if more schools were like his.

Miss out on one holiday a year and they can pay the 20%.

I do think that all these programmes whether real or just for show are based on a false premise - That private schooling is 'better' and that those 93% of disadvantaged kids who go to state school are the only ones to benefit. And should be grateful.

The primary reasons that private school is 'better' is the selective nature of the pupil cohorts and the amount of money the schools have to spend on super & extra curricular activities.

If this money were available in the state system and the ability to select on pretty much any divisive criteria (religion, ability, wealth etc) were removed then all these outreach 'charitable' activities would not be required.

Most of the outreach stuff is simply a paper exercise, when you look as to what they actually do and talk to the state schools, most will roll their eyes.

I’d love to see the stats from the teacher training run by private schools as to how many actually go into the state sector. It’s realistically an exercise to make sure that the private sector has a supply of maths and physics teacher. It will also be paid for by the state. To be frank, I think all these trained by these private school hubs and don’t go into the state sector, private schools should repay the bursary and fees to the government. (Exception being SEND schools.)

(Saying people are forced into paying private fees because they can't afford a mock 11+ also makes no sense at all, even if I didn't know how easy it is to get a free mock, the prices you have quoted are only £60. Not enough to force someone to have to pay private fees for 7 years to get out of! - no, I haven't clicked on the link, why would I)

Oh, and saying I clearly don't like private schools is pointless. Whether I do or I don't has no bearing. I work in education, I know what I am talking about, you don't.

sorry, you are just ignorant, and showing it. That award you were talking about is an advertising stunt.

The training you are talking about is largely done for profit. Many schools are training hubs, mostly state schools, and training in a state school is of far more value.

We offer mocks totally for free, for any child within a 10 mile radius. As do many grammar schools.

State schools are not "competing for the brightest" independent schools are. That is what bursaries and scholarships are about.

I don't really know what you are trying to prove by this thread. You seem to be trying to say that independent schools are benefitting the community, but nothing you have held up as an example shows them benefitting anyone but themselves. All you are doing is showing that you don't seem to have grasped the basic principle of independent schools. They are businesses, run for profit, and as such, need to be taxed.

@SuperSue77 and I'm sorry you son was treated that way. It's unacceptable.

@SuperSue77 In our experience there's a big difference between small prep schools (I know you were talking about secondary) and large super selective senior schools. The local prep did not even try to understand DS's needs, and actually caused harm. We took him out within a year. He spent a year in a local comprehensive that had a functioning SEN team who tried their best but ultimately the environment was wrong for DS and kids with his particular needs.

He now has a bursary place in a large selective senior school that benefits from a well resourced medical centre with counsellors, learning support, mentors, etc. They need these facilities to be able to look after the boarders properly, but of course all pupils can benefit.

Overall though, it's not about the formal SEN provision. It's that DS can manage the day to day in this school without needing additional support.

New data says 111,000+ kids receiving SEN support in Indy schools. That's either free through EHCP but more are receiving support paid for by parents on top of fees.

I’m sorry you had a negative experience. Lots of private schools won’t accept SEN children. It’s certainly not a given that you’ll be welcomed in with open arms and a lot of that hinges on the needs of your child.

I have several friends who had a nightmare trying to find senior schools which would accept their children. SENCO’s do weed out children they feel will be better suited elsewhere or if they feel they’ve hit their “quota”, it’s a very difficult balance. A school here had a particularly difficult year group that had a large number of boys with ADHD which led to a lot of the girls leaving. Our experience is that academically rigorous private schools will and do accept a bright SEN child, it’s helps with their exam results after all!

The issue with VAT on SEN school fees is that many parents don’t want EHCP’s. A lot of people don’t understand just how restrictive they are and the impact it has on your ability as a parent to make choices for your child without LA involvement. Private schools will often reject a child with an EHCP’s not because they can’t meet that child’s needs, but because they don’t want to deal with the administrative nightmare and or legal obligations that comes with it!

I agree with this, a lot of the so called "outreach" is required to be able to claim charity status, and the absolute bare minimum is attempted.

And yes, it is clear to see the extensive damage done to the community as a whole by private education, when you look at the politicians we have had in recent years, and can't understand how they grew up so totally ignorant.

A lot of this supposed private school outreach work is utter bollocks. Looks good on paper and is nothing in practice.

Real life example - we live v close to one of the UKs most prestigious schools. Apparently they provide Latin A level at a local sixth form college. The prospectus says they do. On turning up at the open day there is no representation from the school whatsoever. No one to talk to or find out how it works, just someone with a vague idea that pupils apparently share their a level class with the paying pupils.

What kid in their right mind would plump for a course like that without having the opportunity to speak to someone, especially if it falls out of the usual college processes? Luckily the local state provision for the subject remains excellent elsewhere so options exist.

Therefore, fee paying school can say they offer it, but sadly there was no take up.

Truth is they don’t want state school kids watering down their prestigious offer.

I’ve lived in the area my whole life and never once seen or heard of an ounce of outreach. They stay in their ivory tower and never mix with the proles. Then we wonder why our politicians don’t understand…

(this is my view of this one school. I’m sure a few do take it seriously - probably the more reasonably priced ones who have some sort of links with middle classes rather than upper)

well, that is still a GCSE taken early, isn't it, and you can bet they feed that into their results and take credit for it. - which is what schools have to do, they need a good spin.

I am sure this is a good, happy school. I am not dissing this school in particular, but what the OP is saying about it being a benefit to the community around it in some way is blatantly ridiculous.

It needs to benefit the community by generating taxes.

Btw GCSEs are not taken earlier at Latymer Upper. The exception would be a language for which you are a native speaker but not receiving lessons by the school, eg Turkish.

I have read your post, but I am struggling to believe anyone genuinely believes all this hype.

Who awards the independent school of the year social mobility award? The independent school magazine, does, the free magazine dependent on advertising that sends itself to every independent school in the country for free, whether they want it or not. It has no meaning, it is just another form of self advertising devised by the magazine. The magazine hypes up a school as a form of advertising for the magazine, and the school hypes up the award as a form of advertising for the school. Its like sainsbury's magaizine awarding an award to the sainsbury store that does most for social mobility.

These are the values that Latymer upper says it has which promoted social mobility.

1. To offer financial assistance (through bursaries) to academically ambitious young people from all backgrounds, so that they can benefit from a Latymer education
2. To equip and inspire our students to make a positive impact on society and the world around them
3. To build collaborative partnerships with local schools as a way of sharing academic and pastoral expertise in both directions; by doing this we aim to enhance the skills and knowledge of all students and teachers involved

1. Benefits the school far more than the community - they NEED as many of the highest achievers as possible in order to maintain their status as a super selective grammar
2. Exactly the same as all schools everywhere
3. Claiming to share academic and pastoral expertise in both directions, to be frank they need to take more than give in this area. Why would anyone think that latymer staff have more academic and pastoral expertise than the staff in the comp down the road? There are staff in Latymer that come from comps, and who go on to teach in comps - it is the same pool of staff.

Latymer are super selective, yet do not publish their value- added anywhere. They use a mixture of iGCSEs (which are easier) and entering students for exams early - which is another way of getting higher results, it is so much easier to get high results when doing exams in ones and two that many 6th forms only look at exams taken in year 11 to be included in the entry requirements.

Latymer, I am sure, is a happy school where it is worth the fight to get in, just to be with other children who's parent value education.

It had done a good job in hyping itself up, but lets not pretend it is benefitting the community in any way. A lot of the children on bursaries would get a better education in a local comp. Especially if they are taking iGCSEs and early exams, which are not as valued as a set of standard GCSEs taken in one go.

Not quite sure in which year OP daughter went to the grammar school, but in the current environment in London it’s not possible to get into a super selective grammar school like in the old days. It’s super competitive and definitely not achievable by just going through a couple of £20 papers. Even a very bright child has to have the experience of doing a mock test to get a high mark to get in. Yes, if the parent has the time to tutor then you are lucky but it will still cost a fortune in books and resources.

This is a load of nonsense, I teach in a grammar, and mocks are certainly not required to get in. We do run mocks, but they are not even marked, the mock test is a FREE trial run for any child nervous about the process, and wanting to have a walk through first. They can take their papers home after for parents to look at - but it does not cost anything and they are not marked. I would guess this offer of a walk through is taken up by less than a quarter of the children.

Preparing for the 11+ does not require tutors or expensive books and resources, most resources are free online.

I don't know why you are so keen to push this agenda that private schools are of benefit to the community. The best way they could benefit the community would be to pay tax, as is right and proper

Yes, a lot of this partnership work is really valuable to local schools and the local community. Meanwhile, Eton is planning to open three non fee paying sixth form colleges, contributing a million to each. Wonder if the VAT scheme will change those plans? www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-66573046