Grammar schools to be means tested for free places

I’ve just looked up 2 Gloucester grammars at random (I don’t know the area). One of them does actually seem to do pretty much this (30 pp students who have either got the qualifying score or are within 100 places below the qualifying score) so I guess there is some truth to it.

Stop making shit up!

I'm in Glos. Here most of the grammars have a separate application criteria for PP, although the exact details for each school vary. Also all test scores are put in "rank" order (they don't disclose the details of how they calculate this!), and generally PP requires a lower ranking to qualify for a space (e.g. 800 of 2000 rather than 400 of 2000).

I have never heard of a lower pass mark for PP children-that's good to see. Here, you still have to get the same pass mark as everyone else, but are pretty much guaranteed a place if you get the passmark. The fact that this has made little difference to the number of PP kids in grammar schools does more to highlight the unfairness of the system than otherwise!

Our local grammars require a standardised score of 10 less for pp kids (no one knows what that translates to as a raw score). PP also make up 2 and 3 of the 6 groups for admission

Yeah, there are 6 admission groups and 2 of the first 3 are for pupils in receipt of pp

That’s interesting!
I’ve never heard of that and they don’t in Medway, Kent or Bucks. It’s not something I agree with but then I don’t agree with Grammars anyway.

I heard all grammar schools will be getting a free unicorn this year 🦄🦄🦄

If you are talking about state schools, then no. Some schools call themselves grammars but left the state system, for example after the 1975 regulations, and I know of at least one current state school which has grammar in its title but is actually non-selective, which is probably confusing for people new to the area.

The ones round us have a lower pass mark for fsm

They could take against the grammars again though! As we can see, elite rich people use them and they are ripe for taxing. Not much different to private school parents in some eyes. I guess you could make them charge fees! At least it wouldn’t be abolition as before. This thread does make it clear why iou cannot trust Labour.

I suspect that back in 1966 you would have said that the NHS is free and the Labour Party are not going to start charging for it, but in 1968 Labour re-introduced prescription charges.

We could also talk about tuition fees - introduced by Labour in 1997.

I am not saying they will start charging for state education. Indeed, I would be very surprised if they do. But I wouldn't rule it out just because they are Labour.

I think @noblegiraffe was referring to the PP that stated all Grammars should be made private not that financial contributions would automatically make all schools private.

Is that correct noble?

So it’s a contribution to a charity then. It’s not fees which you cannot put on your self assessment. Lots of schools run a charity like this. Eg it will pay for school trips for those who cannot afford them. Even primary schools do.

@TizerorFizz I can't see where it says aided or controlled. It doesn't cover ingredients or school trips- we pay them separately. We can gift aid our contributions and off set on self assessment.

A couple of hundred pounds contribution from higher earners to their state school (or borough) to improve the conditions for all children using the state system, will not make the state school private!! Private schools costs thousands a term so no comparison.

@circular2478 Do you mean Voluntary Aided or Voluntary Controlled or merely that the school ask for voluntary contributions? Loads of schools do this, not just grammars. They can ask for contributions for projects and to cover costs, eg art, ingredients etc. In my area, the non grammars to do. It’s hardly a tax though.

With the nursery comparison, you acquire a free place via your tax code. You pay fees if you are above this and it stops people working. Most parents in the average semi around here don’t get free nursery but they aren’t remotely well off either. Both work to pay the mortgage! We already have the 40% tax boundary getting lower and lower and mortgage rates are higher now. Anyone contemplating taxing these people more, some of whom are teachers, would immediately cause uproar.

The Labour Party who disagree with private schools and are planning to tax parents who use them to pay for state schools are not planning to turn state schools into private schools. It makes zero sense.

You didn't really frame it as a clear question though. Or at least not a clear one.

I think grammar schools should just become private. The type parents who send their kids there are often the same who send to private after all. The funding spent by the state on keeping grammars open can then be used to improve state non-selective schools in grammar areas.

My dd goes to a grammar. It says they're a voluntary grammar school and therefore permitted to levy fees and charge in respect of pupils. There's a capital compulsory charge of £140 per year and a supplementary parental contribution of £300 per year. It's a large grammar with 1.5k students and they bring in a lot of additional money.
There is also a fsm element in admissions so in result of a tie a fsm child would gain a place over one that isn't eligible.

@Seasaltlady Schools are falling apart because LAs made poor decisions re what construction method to use. It wasn’t forced on them. These buildings were built on a capital budget. Nothing to do with annual budgets. It wasn’t teachers or buildings. It’s poor decision making on how to construct a building to last!

But clearly ‘free for all’ does not work anymore!!!! Otherwise you would would not have schools in some areas of the country literally falling apart. This rhetoric of everything for free needs to stop - those who can pay in should rather than spending this money solely on providing further advantages to their own children while still using the ‘free’ system that is falling apart for the rest!

They would means test (in the same way that is already done to allocate free nursery hours) and those earning over a certain threshold would pay a termly or yearly contribution that would be invoiced to them. It is done this way in other countries and works well to ensure that those who have the means are contributing towards the education system that they benefit from that educates all children from all backgrounds.

^Why not target them financially, if it's OK to target private parents?

Because state education is free and the Labour Party are not going to start charging for state education. FFS.