Which A Levels for Computer Science degree eventually?

In the 90s my A-levels were maths, further maths, Eng lit and French. So further maths didn’t put me off wanting to do a language :). I am still not convinced further maths really is a reason for anyone not doing art or a language etc. Overwhelmingly students who do further maths do 4 A-levels and have a free choice with their other two A-levels.

It is true that fewer and fewer students are studying languages, but I am not convinced that further maths and wanting to study computer science is a large part of the reason….

It doesn't have to narrow the curriculum. Often it will depend on how the college or 6th form timetable the Maths/FM students.

So in practice it's more like extension work rather than a narrowing. (The 'problem' is more that the norm is just 3 subjects - that's not new). And then once at uni on the relatively small number of courses where you pretty much need FM they can get on and build on that and do more, maybe a wider range of CS or engineering options etc.

And fortunately there's lots of other very good unis in these numerate subjects which don't require/assume FM .

He should do further maths. Unis don’t insist on it but that’s largely because not all schools offer it (it was expressed to me as “students should do as much maths as possible”).

@PerpetualOptimist this sounds like my daughter! Always meeting expectations for maths but never exceeding, which I was secretly a bit sad about as I studied maths at uni. Fast forward to year 10 and she has suddenly blossomed. Getting 90-100% in her all her maths tests and assignments and maths teacher telling her she should be aiming for a 9. My daughter is summer born and I think she has taken a while to find her confidence. She’s not going to consider Further Maths though as needs to dedicate all her time to aiming for A stars on her A levels, one of which will be maths.

It seems to me that a requirement for two maths A levels narrows the curriculum and should be unnecessary as the universities ought to just teach the maths in the first year. Anyone with a good grade in single maths has demonstrated the aptitude.
It doesn't have to narrow the curriculum. Often it will depend on how the college or 6th form timetable the Maths/FM students.
Some colleges will make FM a second option so Maths/FM takes up another option, which does narrow it if someone was only going to do 3 A Levels, but generally students doing FM do 4-5 A Levels in my experience, or 4 A Levels and EPQ. Others I've known make Maths/FM one option block but the students work at twice the pace of a standard A Level course, taking Maths in Year 12 and FM in Year 13.

Right from their inception in the 1950s, A levels have been heavily shaped by the university sector. Fewer people went to uni then but also fewer people did A levels; the numbers doing both have expanded dramatically over the years. Unis are the driving force behind early specialisation of education in England. Rightly or wrongly, it is not going to end anytime soon.

In defence of FM, I have two DC who were not deemed 'natural' mathematicians in the Y7-10 period but whose algebraic and related conceptual abilities kicked in, leading up to GCSE. They took FM, enjoyed it, managed that alongside three other levels and other stuff and would say the discipline of logical thinking instilled by FM supported their physical science A level and their humanity A level (as well as, of course, their Maths).

@Pythag not that it shouldn't exist at all but that it's a shame it seems to be becoming an essential for competitive courses in so many different subjects.

So puts off people who might have wanted to do a language or art or music as a 4th. Or those who just weren't extremely committed to maths aged 15. And this in a context where students are already coming to university better prepped with just the single maths A Level than students in other countries.

Are you suggesting that further maths A-level should be discontinued? If you think it should be continued, who should study it?

I am not convinced that studying further maths narrows the curriculum. Generally those who study further maths should study two other non-maths A-levels (which is the same number of non-maths A-levels which people who just study normal maths do).

Entry grades are for all subjects unless specified ie A star in maths etc. Some applicants will have the ideal combination of subjects for their course others not so much because not everyone knows exactly what they want to study at uni when choosing their A levels. But the application is GCSE grades, A levels and personal statement so not one thing. I don't think any CS course asks for A star in Further Maths explicitly, likely A star in maths.

Some rough statistics for you, 68% of A level students take 3 A levels, (some take 2 or less, combined with a BTEC or a diploma, some are wanting to go to uni others are not) less than 5% take 4 A levels and 50% of those taking a 4th A level will take further maths.

Some computer science courses are maths heavy and these are the ones in the top 10. Ds is at Durham studying CS, he would say having fm makes your life a lot easier when learning new CS content and not having to also try to wrap your head around FM stuff as well, especially considering Durham definitely take the majority of applicants who have FM. I did used to have all the entry stats, they are online for lots of uni, try What Do They Know website.

Your son wants to have a competitive entry for whichever university he goes to so although some unis will not specify FM lots of applicants will have it and a uni admissions person may choose to prioritise that. Just remember that each applicant is applying to 5 universities and realistically only wants 1 which they will make their first choice and an another their insurance choice. The uni has far more applications than places and offers to more than they have places for knowing that some will reject them and also a smaller number will miss their grades on results day.

Food for thought, UCL G400 (code for computer science at any uni) stats https://www.reddit.com/r/6thForm/comments/1bcu2dx/ucl_bsc_computer_science_admissions_data_for_2024/?share_id=k1EblTv704ERWVjKwsnIK&utm_content=1&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_source=share&utm_term=13

Was it a requirement of the course that they had further maths A Level?

I did engineering a rather long time ago. You just needed maths and physics to get onto the course. The students who had done further maths all seemed like geniuses for the first term but then it evened out. All relevant maths from the further maths A Level (mainly mechanics) was covered again albeit rather quickly.

I was talking about the requirement to study further maths. Maths itself is a sensible requirement.

It seems to me that a requirement for two maths A levels narrows the curriculum and should be unnecessary as the universities ought to just teach the maths in the first year. Anyone with a good grade in single maths has demonstrated the aptitude.

A Level maths is already beyond what many students in other countries do at school as we already study only three or four subjects so are already super specialised.

DH studied Economics at Cambridge and his A levels were English, History and Economics. He failed his maths module in his first year and recognises that A level Maths would have been more beneficial than History.

What's wrong with just teaching you the maths in your first year at uni?

Well... my DDs course then taught them more maths, and they did want to be studying some engineering not just maths.

DS is studying compsci at Southampton (year 3 of 4). His A levels were in maths, physics and compsci. He said that further maths would have been helpful - it’s a lot of hardcore maths, esp in years 1/2.

Imperial has maths as essential and further maths, computer science and physics as helpful. They make a fair few offers for three a levels (I think around 25%) so I would guess quite a few don't have further maths as it is usually a 4th A Level. My understanding is that without computer science you need to show an interest in the subject perhaps do some personal coding projects etc.

I must say I absolutely loathe the trend for more and more universities to want further maths for economics, computer science and engineering. As if our school system isn't specialist enough without students spending either 50% or 66% of their time in sixth form studying a single subject. What's wrong with just teaching you the maths in your first year at uni?

Asking what offers would look like with a given subject combination is an excellent question to ask at open days!

Or for the yr10/11 kids contemplating their choices, it can be a question to ask course admission tutors by email (or phone, but email is probably easier).

Maths/FM/CompSci and Music sounds an excellent combination to me. Next year (this summer if he can get to some open days is a good start) he should look at what the various comp sci courses actually include and notice what he likes the sound of, what he is less interested in, to work out which courses he would enjoy. At the same time he should consider what music he is likely to be able to do alongside. Obviously oxbridge is good for that but so are lots of other places. My DS is currently doing maths but with plenty of music activities alongside - he had a similar dilemma at your son's age, and came to appreciate that a maths degree would give him better options for earning money at least to start with. It also turned out he didn't like writing essays (though he's good at them), which was a final nail in the coffin for applying for a music degree 😄He's actually won a significant compositon prize already this year so music is earning him money at present ...

(My DS did physics not comp sci A level, and threw in a language "because he could" ... Music A* wasn't difficult for him, being a few years past grade 8s in two instruments and theory, and a similar standard in a 3rd instrument and singing)

Edited to add: On 5 A levels, his (maths) offers all asked for Astar in both maths, and an A either in physics specifically, or in any of the others. Asking what offers would look like with a given subject combination is an excellent question to ask at open days!

@VanillaSugar2024 You can apply for both, so you can have a mix of degree courses and apprenticeships and make a firm decision further down the process.

Is it possible to apply for a degree apprenticeship alongside the UCAS application, or are the two mutually exclusive?

You might also get one uni giving two variations on its offer - eg A star A A or A star A star B with one of the A star grades being in maths.

Further Maths is useful partly because - depending on where he goes - the majority of others on the course will have done it, so it helps not to get left behind (I speak from painful experience here!)

Presumably, an offer would be for the subjects most relevant to the degree. In that case, if 3 subjects were identified for an offer, presumably that would be Maths, Further Maths and Computing.

not quite.

if a course has a subject that is a pre requisite (such as maths) for computing then yes that subject will be stipulated and a minimum grade in that subject might also be stipulated.

So the offer could be for example AAB including at least an A in maths.

Or it could be AAB including A in either maths or Computer Science (if that’s what a particular uni specify. )

I always push able students who want to do further maths to do 4 A-levels. If you are able to do double maths, you can do two other A-levels too generally.

Would music be a 4th or a 3rd A Level?

I don't have any evidence other than anecdotal to prove this but I suspect that getting an A star in music is harder for able student than getting an A star in maths/computer science (if you're good at these subjects, getting an A star is "straight forward"). Therefore, if your DC is targeting the top universities that want predominantly A stars, I might be wary of music if a 3rd and not a 4th A Level.