Moving to private for A levels

Yes! And I wrote it down too!

@TizerorFizz "It’s not all doom and gloom for privately educated dc"

🤣 Did you say that with a completely straight face?

My DD moved successfully from a large state comprehensive on the semi-rural fringe of a northern city (no uniform, strong creative arts focus, socially and racially diverse) to a small boys' independent with a Christian ethos that takes girls in the sixth form, close to the city centre. In short, the two environments could not be more different. She thrived in both, socially and academically, and is now in the third year of an MFL undergrad at Oxbridge. Applying to Oxbridge was her choice, not driven by us, and supported by school based on GCSE grades and predicted A level grades.

The change from state to independent was not planned and came about when the state school careers' advisor suggested she apply for a music scholarship, based on all grade 9 to 7 GCSE predictions and grade 6 proficiency in two musical instruments. This too was driven by her. DD did make the move with another girl from the state comp but quickly and easily made new friends. The academic transition was much harder. She saw very quickly that the knowledge of her new peers in French and English was deeper and more secure than hers. (Music, her third A level subject, was different as she spent term-time Saturdays at a music academy with tuition in two instruments and theory.) In French in particular, she had to get her head around conjugation, sequence of tenses, conditional sentences, participles, gender and adjectival agreement with a rigour and structure she had not encountered at GCSE as the state school 'taught to the test', as so many do.

Here's a quick analysis of why the change worked for DD which I hope will help the OP with her family's decision. DD has always handled school transition well, from a busy workplace nursery; to a primary seen as tough in the affluent corner of our northern city (an absurd view, in my opinion); to a large, informal state secondary; to a small independent at which exemplary behaviour and flawless courtesy are expected at every moment if the school day; to the high-octane terms and eccentric rituals of an ancient university. She understands that she is privileged to have had an independent education at sixth form and to be at Oxbridge (she and I have had many conversations about relative privilege since she was about 12). She studies methodically and hard, and knows that application and ability both matter.

In the shoes of the OP, I would be thinking about the personality and character of the child (young person!) and asking the school what they have in place to integrate pupils who join in sixth form. A change of school at 16 is a very good way of paving the way to what comes next - higher education, apprenticeship, traineeship, gap year, volunteering abroad - with the security of home still in place.

@Mother007 It’s not all doom and gloom for privately educated dc. They just need to be savvy with university and course choices. Oxbridge is one option only. The point for the OP to consider is DD being happy at school and having friends. This could mean DD does better than she might have done.

If a student achieves top grades while attending a state school with the issues common to state schools, I think they are probably more intelligent than someone who achieves the same grades with far more support. I feel it is entirely fair that the state schooler is more likely to be offered a place.

Being frank, if private school students can’t get in with everything private school affords them, chances are, they just aren’t good enough. They wouldn’t easily get in if they went to a state school – they probably wouldn’t be getting the same grades, because of the class size, disruption, everything else state schools are far worse for. The exceptional private schoolers will still get into the top universities, don’t worry. It’s just that the ones who aren’t actually anything special, just fortunate, might have to slum it at Exeter, or Bristol etc.

What does she want to do? I’d expect her to be driving the conversation.

My son is at a state school with sixth form. He enjoys very small classes of less than 10 students. The local private school has bigger classes. Personally I think smaller classes aren’t always a benefit socially.

@TizerorFizz this is an excellent point made about confidence - this is what makes us to stick to the private sector and this factor is really had to argue with.

With regards to Oxbridge we not even looking at this as I am not happy with their increasingly left attitude, there are many excellent Russell group uni's in the UK although they are also inclined the state direction, unfortunately.
Also, re co's make selection test/procedures as opposed to uni name - very valid point.

@Mother007 I know for a fact privately educated dc look at all sorts of universities including those abroad. They are now around 30% at Oxbridge m(or less?) but most parents really won’t mind. The best dc will get on well regardless.

Many companies won’t look at uni but will have tests and selection procedures open to all. We all know Oxbridge turns down many many talented DC with stellar A level predictions from state and private. It’s beginning to be far less important than it used to be because many talented dc are looking at other unis. At my DCs private schools, the talk was not Oxbridge. At a few schools it’s been a destination for a good few in the past but, quite frankly, those schools like Westminster, St Paul’s, Wycombe Abbey, Winchester and Eton etc will still have many hugely successful DC.

We don’t know if this DD is remotely interested in Oxbridge. I would bet most other unis won’t bother about 6th form attended too much and they really don’t want AAA for lots of degrees. However this will depend on uni and course chosen. Private schools are not full of parents expecting Oxbridge or crying because dc now might not go. One thing private school can give is confidence. Confidence to do well anywhere.

@UpsideLeft - I said if the candidates were as close to identical as possible, and that would include gcse results. My point was that if all things are equal - apart from the fact that one of two candidates was at a state sixth form - then it would give that candidate an advantage if the university wants to fill a state school quota as well.

People seem to mix this up with contextual offers and feel compelled to point out that unis are ‘onto this’ - yes they are, but it’s also about quotas on a broader level. In the scenario above, they would pick the candidate who went to a state sixth form.

@TizerorFizz I am not inaccurate in fact very much the opposite. The issue and conflict of prv vs state for Universities is all over this country among parents.
Yes Oxbridge are the primary focus in this discussion but not only these two unis, the key top universities. Maybe "standard" as you call them out of scope but then I know for a fact many children in top selective prv schools will want to go to Oxbridge.

This is not true

They look at GCSE grades and will offer the place to the DC with higher GCSE grades if their A Levels are the same

Which of course is generally the private school DC because state school DC have larger more unruly classes etc for GCSEs

So it's a sneaky way to get the private DC into the top unis after all

This is a fact

You might find there's an excellent selective 6th form college she could go to instead of a private one

It really depends on where you live, what her current school is like compared to the private schools nearby and other state schools

Some academic private schools kick out pupils that they know won't do well in their A Levels so they have to go elsewhere

If you genuinely think she'll do better then go for it

Lots of DC have to go to new schools for 6th form as not all have a 6th form anyway so making new friends isn't a huge issue

Who said the OP wanted those? Why do threads always get back to Oxbridge? Other unis are available and maybe my “tone” was frustration at your inaccuracy! Yes, Oxbridge is different but is the DD applying there? If you meant Oxbridge, maybe say so!

@TizerorFizz since you adopted such tone, I do not believe I am wrong. I believe I am right and that is the opinion I gathered from many parents and one head teacher who are in the topic.

Standard unis non Russell group unis yes, I was more referring to the top UNIS such as Oxford/Cambridge and many Russell group and this is where privately educated students will go.

@Mother007 Sorry - you are wrong! There’s loads of MFL courses that don’t require 3xA from anyone! Many RG unis don’t for some courses. After that places like Surrey, Kent, Essex and many post 92 unis don’t expect AAA either! Being at a private school for 6th doesn’t harm anyone’s chances for standard courses at standard unis. Only the elite bother and only some of them!

It depends on what provision you have where you are. DD hated high school and struggled socially, but luckily here the provision is college not 6th form, she is loving college. A level classes are smaller anyway even in state schools (at lest here they are), so her class sizes are 20 or less depending on the subject.

@CurlewKate @Wowstar

Yes absolutely right. Universities now look at state educated children with priority. Uni also look at where they did their GCSEs so the "trick" of moving from prv to state for 6th Form does no longer work.
From private they will require absolute As and from state there is more leniency with grade results. I think it is wrong, they need to reform the school system as opposed to penalise privately educated children (which is exactly what Uni do).

@CurlewKate - behind paywalls but -

https://www.economist.com/britain/2023/03/11/state-school-admissions-are-rising-at-oxford-and-cambridge

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/11/25/state-schools-local-authorities-oxbridge-admissions-double/

There's obviously a lot there about contextual offers - a pupil from a high performing state grammar is not going to get a contextual offer, of course.

But to imagine an example - let's say you have two pupils who go to St Paul's Girls for GCSEs. One leaves at A-level for Tiffin (state), the other stays at SPGS for A-level. They both apply to Oxford. They have identical grade predictions and do identically well at interview - but there's only one place.

If the Oxford college is looking to fulfil a state school admissions quota, then the pupil from Tiffin will still 'count' as a state school pupil, even though the admissions team will know she was at private until sixth form. It's a bit tricky to quantify exactly, but, all things being equal, there can be an advantage...

@Wowstar "Unis have to achieve certain criteria with intake. If you have two near-identical pupils with identical grade predictions, and one is from private and one is from a state sixth form (albeit just for two years), and the uni needs to have a certain number of state applicants, the pupil from the state school still has an advantage as it will tick that box."

Could you link to more information about this, please?

We are going to move in the other direction at sixth form - from private to state. In London the brilliant academic state options become more available at 16plus rather than the 11plus.

There are a few reasons why we will do this - VAT on fees will tip us over the edge of private remaining affordable, and I think it's quite good for kids to have a change before Uni if they've been with all the same kids since junior school (which mine have). Also, while universities are absolutely onto the 'move to state for the sixth form' thing, and will look at GCSEs, it can potentially work to one's advantage for university entrance.

Unis have to achieve certain criteria with intake. If you have two near-identical pupils with identical grade predictions, and one is from private and one is from a state sixth form (albeit just for two years), and the uni needs to have a certain number of state applicants, the pupil from the state school still has an advantage as it will tick that box.

@dontdarepokethebear My DD1 went to a relatively small private school and they had a few new girls in the 6th form, mostly Chinese. If new DDs wanted to integrate with everyone , they were made welcome. It was boarding and many of the girls had been there for 5 years but there were day pupils and certainly new girls were welcome.

DD2 left that school for different A level subjects and did find it more difficult to “break in” to existing friendships but it was a very small school. We did look at schools with a bigger intake but they forced new DDs into the same house and they were automatically separated. So look at integration - how does the school help with this? I know you are not looking at boarding but even for day pupils, it matters.

What are her interests and how can she pursue these? Look at results. Look at size of classes and destinations of pupils. Private doesn’t mean they are all going to the best unis. What help do they give for choosing A levels and universities? In y12 you start looking.

Overall, I’d move. You cannot force other pupils to be friends but she should find more when she’s in A level classes. DD1 has very strong ties with school friends, but DD2 who moved, less so. However they are a more international group of girls!

On the whole I think the movement is in the other direction to assist with Uni applications later . However if she is unhappy then it is best to look at all the options . Could be a co Ed school might be better or a sixth form college .

I did. Best thing I ever did. Still friends with those sixth formers 25 years later.

suddenly I was with a pool of bright girls who all wanted to learn. It was a revelation at the time and I went from a relatively good set of GCSEs to 3 As at a-level. Will def consider the same for my sons. Main issue is that the local private will only take kids for sixth form with very high grades.