Page 3 | To move school mid Y7 when she is doing great?

SimonBolivar · 2024-03-04T18:26:56+00:00

Hello my daughter has settled really well in a local comp. She was selected for the scholars program and may or may not be gifted but is super bright and interested, studious. I a not super keen on assessments and so I’m just happy she’s getting on very well socially and academically. She loves languages and unprompted her favourite new subject is German. the challenge: there is a very unique school in our area (Europa if anyone knows) - it teaches primary bilingual so half the week is English and half the week is either french, German or Spanish. for secondary they continue with the bilingual focus. Teaching history georgrsphy and literature in french. They do not do A levels (or even gcse) but prepare for the IB. they have good results. It’s a free government funded school. Yes - unique. i am french and my husband English. My kids have had a standard U.K. education so far except for the few short years abroad where my daughter did the equivalent of Y1 at a french international school. She is fully bilingual we have received an offer out of the blue for her to join after Easter i don’t use mumsnet a lot but it’s here I have come across the expression “don’t move a happy child” the advantages for her and my family are as follows: if she takes the place her sister and brother woul be given priority automatically. This means my youngest could start reception next year in bilingual environment, and my middle child could join either in Y5 or Y7 depending what we decide. it would be an amazing boost to their french. They speak it but without peers/ teaching etc, it’s made it really hard on me to be the sole provider of french and I revert to English often, as they know I understand everything: what’s the point of speaking to me in french, when it’s harder for them to do so: not a virtuous cycle! she would work towards the IB in a demanding environment which I believe would suit her BUT no school is perfect and like all others they have their own issues. The long term sustainability of the European project behind it… will it survive? A question for sure. and more transport and therefore longer hours (not necessarily an issue, for my husband and I that means longer working days.. but not ideal for the reception child) as you can imagine, very conflicted. There is no amount of tuition I believe would give them the experience of developing daily sustained friendships in the language…. i am aware of her being a strategic placement for the rest of my family to then join the school… what would you think and ask yourself? not looking for do this or that but rather : consider this or ask that. thank you

Foxesandsquirrels · 13/03/2024 11:22

I don't want to pile onto you, I'm sure this wasn't an easy decision but please don't give her a book about changes. She sounds intelligent and it's very patronising. She's not 8. You just need to ride this out I'm afraid. It's a shame she can't start before Easter, your holidays will be a bit miserable and the time she's waiting to move will add to anxiety. In my experience, it's better if they just start on a Monday so there's no anxiously long waits. Is there any way she could start before Easter?

JessyCarr · 13/03/2024 10:49

Sorry but I don’t think books are going to help with this. I think she deserves to be really listened to. Previously you though she was indifferent to the choice of schools but things have moved on and now you know she really isn’t. It’s far from obvious that this move is in her best interests. Your intelligent child has lots to say about whether you should be going through with this - please let her tell you, without seeing it as an opportunity for you to tell her why she is wrong.

TheOccupier · 13/03/2024 06:03

Poor kid. I have no further advice, I'm afraid.

HaveringGold · 12/03/2024 22:34

We moved when DC were teenagers, it was unavoidable but an inevitably highly emotional time. My first advice is allow her to feel what she's feeling, don't dismiss it or say 'everything will be fine' she's all sorts of combinations of angry, frustrated, scared, overwhelmed and not in control of her own destiny, so it's ok she's lashing out. Obviously there are boundaries in terms of behaviour but let her feel all those emotions- it may be the first time she's experienced some of them on such a scale.

Can't recommend any books but things that helped my two were going in to see the new school - you need to judge the timing if she's too angry still she won't appreciate it, but you don't have much time so maybe in a few weeks just before the break. I'd also recommend a bit of flexibility on social stuff with old friends and screen time especially after the move, she's going to need those connections with old friends to help her settle in the new place and that might happen online if they don't see each other during the week. Can the school find her a buddy - maybe who lives near by, similar interests to help her first couple of days? As an international cohort they'll be use to settling in new kids.

Anyway in all honesty it just takes time, for us, one of ours settled in about 3-4 month, for the other it took a good year to settle. So you may be in for a long haul but just remember why you made the choice and hopefully it she will come round quickly.

Foxesandsquirrels · 12/03/2024 15:19

SimonBolivar · 12/03/2024 15:16

After Easter break. We have 6 weeks from acceptance and deadline for acceptance was today

Show quote history

Wow that's unusual for a state school. Hopefully she comes round.

Original poster

SimonBolivar · 12/03/2024 15:16

Foxesandsquirrels · 12/03/2024 15:03

@SimonBolivar oh gosh. When does she start?

After Easter break. We have 6 weeks from acceptance and deadline for acceptance was today

OP posts:

Foxesandsquirrels · 12/03/2024 15:03

@SimonBolivar oh gosh. When does she start?

Original poster

SimonBolivar · 12/03/2024 11:04

Hi everyone,

we took the decision to move our girl. She is displeased (an understatement).
at the end of the day she’s only 11, we have her best interests at heart and we are confident she can conquer the emotional upheaval of moving schools making new friends etc.

with that’s said she’s really super mad at us, we’re ruining her life, we’re monsters
for forcing her to go etc…

I can write what I’m writing because I know in my heart of heart that this decision was made out of love for her and consideration for her and we are ready for a rough few months as she adjusts

and I wonder if you have any good recommendations for teen / YA books that deal with big changes instigated by parents or feel unfair like moving schools or country that could help her at this stage without being too obvious - she’s an avid reader

inside out is a good movie for example (minus the part where she runs away!)

thank you

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ZsaZsaTheCat · 05/03/2024 12:16

Mumoftwo1312 · 04/03/2024 22:32

Op have you heard of John Hattie's effect sizes? He measured how different interventions/events affected children's academic attainment.

Moving between schools, except at the regular stage (eg primary to secondary) has a worse negative effect on attainment than lack of sleep, being suspended, or even being corporally punished at home.

So yeah. Don't move a happy child...! It literally has a worse effect on their academic attainment than smacking.

Source: https://visible-learning.org/hattie-ranking-influences-effect-sizes-learning-achievement/

I've copied a zoom in of the relevant bit of the data

I don’t care who the hell John Hattie is but that is absolute crap. You can engineer any data you want from the right set of questions!
Corporal punishment is ‘flogging’ and ‘ caning’, I had a taste of that in the 70’s and it scars you for life.
How awful of you to present this table as some sort of reason not to move schools. My children had to move schools aged 14 & 10 due to husbands promotion and with all the love and care we could manage we made it work. They are both successful 30 somethings and have no scars from moving schools!

Original poster

SimonBolivar · 05/03/2024 12:14

Just wanted to say THANK YOU to everyone. I am going to disconnect now. It's given me a lot of thoughts and questions to ask.

One last remark. If only I'd started a tracker of how many hours of research, discussions with parents, discussions with my husband and my child, or online I've spent - about secondary education. There is so much choice here, but in other countries, there will be parents where this whole "which school to go to" is just a non subject. And it's good, standard, education. Imagine that.

How many days of your life and sanity you'd recoup!

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HaveringGold · 05/03/2024 12:13

Happy to help. And good luck whichever way you go.

Like you, I have moved around a huge amount as a child and in my career too and loved it, so I sort of assumed it would be OK for the family. In reality I've one who has been fine and one who fell to pieces after the last move. A very unpleasant way to learn that lesson.

On language have a think about the question re French Universities. It was one of the DC's teachers who posed it to us. Reality is they won't go to French Uni in which case the goal is good conversational french, an ability to read and write but no stress about being able to perform competitive exams! So even though they are in a bilingual school and DH is pushing it at home, it helped ease of on the stress and hard work of it.

Bon chance !

Original poster

SimonBolivar · 05/03/2024 12:10

ODFOx · 05/03/2024 12:05

If she only started at this school in year 7 then her ties, though strong because of her age, aren't so well formed that she can't make new ones.
Putting aside that she is happy now; if this place had come up at the beginning of y7 would she already be there?; comparing the 2 schools dispassionately which will suit her personality and learning style best?; if this is going to be a commitment for all your DC school careers could you consider moving closer to make their days shorter?; realistically it will never be easier to move her now, so if you are going to do it, now is the time.

yes if we'd had the option she would have joined that school in sept. the school is not far - just 15 min drive. The days are longer because they close earlier for the summer - european style! Which has its own benefits (for kids) and drawbacks (for us: childcare)
And so they have a longer day, with earlier start and slightly later finish.

OP posts:

ODFOx · 05/03/2024 12:05

If she only started at this school in year 7 then her ties, though strong because of her age, aren't so well formed that she can't make new ones.
Putting aside that she is happy now; if this place had come up at the beginning of y7 would she already be there?; comparing the 2 schools dispassionately which will suit her personality and learning style best?; if this is going to be a commitment for all your DC school careers could you consider moving closer to make their days shorter?; realistically it will never be easier to move her now, so if you are going to do it, now is the time.

Original poster

SimonBolivar · 05/03/2024 12:04

HaveringGold · 05/03/2024 10:30

So quick potted history, I'm British, DH is French, we live abroad but kids go to a bilingual french english school and are doing no GSCE's but MYP and IB. So, some things to consider

it is not uncommon for parents to put kids in primary for a foreign language and then shift them in secondary to the 'home' system, in this case, GCSE and A levels. The assumption is they got the basics of the language when young and now they can revert to the home education system the parents are more familiar with. So I wouldn't worry about the number of people leaving at the end of primary, but I would look at how the figures shift in the higher years as a better indicator of how happy students are.
International cohorts are great, especially for languages, but 1) they are very mobile, so you may find kids move a lot, which can impact friendships. Again, check out turnover over all the years, but especially for the last two IB years - how big is each year group and what % moves? And 2) if they are a broad international cohort, the social language will likely be English, so you may find that little French is spoken outside class - in terms of your 'deeper international relationships'.
IB scores - check for trends, again if cohort is small then the numbers can easily be skewed by results in a "good or bad" cohort. Check class sizes if you can by subjects - sciences are great in small groups with really focused teaching attention; small classes in Humanities can hamper debate, which is really important in IB.
Re Universities - DS is applying currently, and honestly, neither he nor his peers are facing any problems with IB versus A levels either in the UK or elsewhere. The Unis get IB and in some cases voice a preference for it.
IMO don't stress about GSCEs - controversial statement I now! But IB keeps the subjects broad while A levels allow the student to focus, so GSCEs are arguably more important for A level students to show their abilities in core subjects before they get dropped. So Maths GSCE shows ability for a student who goes on to do English, History and Geo; just as English GSCE shows ability in a science or maths orientated student (this is an oversimplification I know before others jump on me!)

And then without wanting to sound preachy, I'd flag two other things from your answers;

You need to get stability in now she's hitting secondary - we've moved the kids, and have many friends who've done the same and you mentioned that stability hasn't been a great driver of decisions before. Now it sort of has to be, sorry! As the kids get older it is much harder to move them emotionally and also to hit a time that works for all the kids at various stages of education (you mentioned younger ones). You're almost hitting the limit of when I'd recommend a move. So I guess you and DH need to have a big discussion about that - and if there is any other big moves on the horizon, then think of the implications of this move.

And secondly on language - lord I know its tough bringing up bilingual kids especially when they live in a country dominated by one of the languages. If she stays in the current school - and actually even if she moves - you may need to be stricter on the French in the house. Since they became teens DH has been much firmer on the only speaking French and its paid off, they took a big leap in their language all be it oral and comprehension, writing is still off but then will your kids go to French Uni? That's a big driver for written French, if they will stay UK or other European Unis, less of an issue.

Phew - sorry, that was longer than I intended! Hope it helps or gives you some things to consider.

THANK YOU! Super helpful.

and re: stability yes, this thread has made me reflect on when I had more or less of it through education as a child (and later in my career!) and what that meant for me. I guess I learnt to thrive in midst of changes, yet stability also has many advantages. "Security" isnt a big driver for me but I recognise that I am in the minority there (even in my household)

Good point on very rounded GCSEs vs Deep/narrower A levels. Super insightful in that light as a "guarantee" for british employers of basics acquired.

Also super insightful: relationship between class size and subject. Wouldnt have thought of that.

And yes: I know I need to be stricter on language at home... it's just really, really hard when the environment, my work, my husband, everything IS NOT in French. And the kids answer in English if I speak to them in French.. And so each subsequent child is "worse" at French. There are more things we can do I am sure... Just hard work!

OP posts:

Takeachance18 · 05/03/2024 11:55

The difference to joining most secondary schools in year 7 is that friendships are forming, however some of these children will have been together since year reception - I would be asking how many joined the stream in year 7. Was the child who left, one who joined in year 7. Given falling numbers, would reception child not get in? Still no guarantee they would get French as the language, same for middle child. It is a unique school.

minimiffy · 05/03/2024 11:36

I think moving in Year 7 for a great opportunity is fine. There are some threads about people doing similar for grammar schools when WL places come up in term-time and I don't know this school but it sounds like it's very unique and the same sort of decision (with the added bonus of the sibling policy).
If it is quite international then maybe the kids there are quite used to others arriving/leaving and friendship groups open to that. I think friendship groups are quite fluid in Year 7 anyway.

HaveringGold · 05/03/2024 10:30

So quick potted history, I'm British, DH is French, we live abroad but kids go to a bilingual french english school and are doing no GSCE's but MYP and IB. So, some things to consider

it is not uncommon for parents to put kids in primary for a foreign language and then shift them in secondary to the 'home' system, in this case, GCSE and A levels. The assumption is they got the basics of the language when young and now they can revert to the home education system the parents are more familiar with. So I wouldn't worry about the number of people leaving at the end of primary, but I would look at how the figures shift in the higher years as a better indicator of how happy students are.
International cohorts are great, especially for languages, but 1) they are very mobile, so you may find kids move a lot, which can impact friendships. Again, check out turnover over all the years, but especially for the last two IB years - how big is each year group and what % moves? And 2) if they are a broad international cohort, the social language will likely be English, so you may find that little French is spoken outside class - in terms of your 'deeper international relationships'.
IB scores - check for trends, again if cohort is small then the numbers can easily be skewed by results in a "good or bad" cohort. Check class sizes if you can by subjects - sciences are great in small groups with really focused teaching attention; small classes in Humanities can hamper debate, which is really important in IB.
Re Universities - DS is applying currently, and honestly, neither he nor his peers are facing any problems with IB versus A levels either in the UK or elsewhere. The Unis get IB and in some cases voice a preference for it.
IMO don't stress about GSCEs - controversial statement I now! But IB keeps the subjects broad while A levels allow the student to focus, so GSCEs are arguably more important for A level students to show their abilities in core subjects before they get dropped. So Maths GSCE shows ability for a student who goes on to do English, History and Geo; just as English GSCE shows ability in a science or maths orientated student (this is an oversimplification I know before others jump on me!)

And then without wanting to sound preachy, I'd flag two other things from your answers;

You need to get stability in now she's hitting secondary - we've moved the kids, and have many friends who've done the same and you mentioned that stability hasn't been a great driver of decisions before. Now it sort of has to be, sorry! As the kids get older it is much harder to move them emotionally and also to hit a time that works for all the kids at various stages of education (you mentioned younger ones). You're almost hitting the limit of when I'd recommend a move. So I guess you and DH need to have a big discussion about that - and if there is any other big moves on the horizon, then think of the implications of this move.

And secondly on language - lord I know its tough bringing up bilingual kids especially when they live in a country dominated by one of the languages. If she stays in the current school - and actually even if she moves - you may need to be stricter on the French in the house. Since they became teens DH has been much firmer on the only speaking French and its paid off, they took a big leap in their language all be it oral and comprehension, writing is still off but then will your kids go to French Uni? That's a big driver for written French, if they will stay UK or other European Unis, less of an issue.

Phew - sorry, that was longer than I intended! Hope it helps or gives you some things to consider.

Original poster

SimonBolivar · 05/03/2024 10:09

PuttingDownRoots · 05/03/2024 09:16

Has your DD expressed an opinion either way about the schools?

Well she has NOT stormed out and shouted I dont wanna go! (which was what I was expecting!)
She seems interested in the IB, languages focus and being with dual nationality peers. They also have no uniform, and longer summer holidays which we have pointed as "carrots"
Her first reaction though was about her current social group and knowing no one there is the hurdle we need to climb.

She is looking forward to visiting the school again. I'd say she's OPEN but slightly anxious about what a move would mean, and at this stage non committal (which is fine, we said we'd make the decision this week end)

When we were making our preferences last year she was equally ready to go to Europa, her current school, and other schools we'd visited. you could say she was "not bothered" as long as at least one friend was there.

She's had a few friends go "alone" to the various independant schools around us, so she knows they have thrived despite not knowing anyone initially, and she thinks she could do that too.

But yes she has a very nice friendship groups of girls local to us, including a neighbour she's been in class since y3, and who's she's like a sister to. She will remain a neighbour though!

OP posts:

Original poster

SimonBolivar · 05/03/2024 09:21

we were given a space in German for September start. At that time she didn’t speak a word of German. It’s a government funded school and admissions are managed by the local authority. It’s illegal for them to discriminate in any ways, including what kind of language the child already speaks… we declined the offer and remained on waiting list, knowing we were near the top. And by now I had discounted it…

the nodal points of catchment area are far from us, despite us being quite close to the school (super weird!) which is why there’s no chance my reception kid would get in. We tried 7 years ago for the now Y7 child and it didn’t work. Only way in is reception and Y7 or siblings…. Or 6th form

there’s a place because someone has left is all I know so far

yes I can see it would be harder to get top grades to get into certain universities… I guess I’m personally thinking beyond grades about what a more holistic curriculum does to your brain

some of the results the school got are outstanding with a few students scoring over 40… average was 36ish so not bad at all (considering it’s not parents funded)

thanks for your inputs

OP posts:

PuttingDownRoots · 05/03/2024 09:16

Has your DD expressed an opinion either way about the schools?

Original poster

SimonBolivar · 05/03/2024 09:13

I’ve totally kept that part quiet to her BUT it’s ther in the back of my mind.

that being said if I was totally taking them out of equation I would be more likely to offer her an open choice:

you either choose to go to the bilingual school or we will do formal french tutoring to catch up on some bits she has not grasped due to lack of formal french education (grammar, conjugaisons etc)

but even with that I am left a bit wanting… of the opportunities of a deeply international peer group.

making progress in my head… all comments gladly received!

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Camdenish · 05/03/2024 09:05

As well as the areas others people have mentioned I think you need to look at how doing the IB rather than A levels may affect all of your children’s HE opportunities if they plan to stay in the UK to study. There was a thread on here about how much more difficult it was for children with the IB to get the grades required for particular universities.

Anecdotally, I know children who have been moved from the uk school system into the French (but bilingual) system and struggled with how regulated and strict it was. Maybe this is less of an issue for your children who have been through both systems.

Why has your daughter been given the place unexpectedly? Did the original applicants decline? I’d think about this.

Original poster

SimonBolivar · 05/03/2024 08:53

Mumoftwo1312 · 04/03/2024 22:32

Op have you heard of John Hattie's effect sizes? He measured how different interventions/events affected children's academic attainment.

Moving between schools, except at the regular stage (eg primary to secondary) has a worse negative effect on attainment than lack of sleep, being suspended, or even being corporally punished at home.

So yeah. Don't move a happy child...! It literally has a worse effect on their academic attainment than smacking.

Source: https://visible-learning.org/hattie-ranking-influences-effect-sizes-learning-achievement/

I've copied a zoom in of the relevant bit of the data

No I hadn’t heard of that. I guess we’ve already “harmed” her through several school and systems moves
since I work in analytics this kind of PSA is really helpful at macro level to plan for national interventions (hello help people deal with mental illness!) but on individual level the effect can be highly individualised
min also an immigrant (documented) so in that approach that would be a negative but I firmly it’s a positive in our case

OP posts:

Original poster

SimonBolivar · 05/03/2024 08:49

LightSwerve · 05/03/2024 06:23

She's had no choice but to adapt, that's what kids do.

Are you settled now or likely to move again?

If you're settled I would give her the choice, she might consider herself to have made friends.

But if you're going to move her again anyway, make that part of the conversation as there's no point her factoring friendships if she will move again.

I wouldn't move a happy child, personally, unless the move felt vital.

Show quote history

Yes you’re right she had to/ but she has sone that well / where others could have struggled more I think.

I’d like to say we’ve entered a more stable phase but it seems as a family we look for big changes every couple of years / new career for me/ new house project.

i guess stability hasn’t be a big driver of decisions which gives me pause for reflection

it’s all helpful keep it coming

OP posts:

AcridAndStanLee · 05/03/2024 08:07

BUT no school is perfect and like all others they have their own issues. The long term sustainability of the European project behind it… will it survive? A question for sure.

This also really sticks out to me. I'd be very concerned at a double upheaval as she has to move again and your little ones still don't get in.