Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

Do we have grounds for appeal? Am I'm being overly optimistic...

28 replies

localnotail · 03/03/2024 16:16

Hi everyone, I'm trying to sort things out in my head so feeling all stressed and been asking a few people on here via DM, which is probably not the way forward. So decided just to put it out here for people to comment on. It might be outing but I don't really care as I'm at the end of my tether with all this...

So here's what happened:

  • We got our 4th choice school. Good school but huge and new
  • Its 35 minutes bus ride and 10 minutes walk away from us - over 3km away
  • All DS's friends ended up in 2 schools which were 1st and 2nd on our list – no idea how, some live further away than us. We are within 1km of both schools.
  • DS was sure he will get into our preferred school, or at least the other two so now is massively depressed and upset, as you might imagine. None of his friends are going to the school we got. We used to live close to the no.1 choice school until 2 years ago, he grew up next to it and was always convinced that's where he is going.
  • DS is quite immature and can’t travel by himself on a bus, we are working on it but at the moment he cant do it. He is quite terrified of the prospect - I know it will be ok eventually but I wont be able to help him even for a few months while he is getting used to it, as I work all day. I was hoping he will be ok with it by now but he is still fearful and I don't want to push him too hard.
  • I’m a single parent, work full time, get back home at 7:30 and rely heavily on my Childminder. She will look after him after school and check he does homework but he will have to travel by himself to hers, on a different bus/ different route, also about 30-40 minutes.

I will, of course, accept the school we got, will try to make DM to feel good about it and accepts the fact he might have to go there; will work on the travelling issue and will make sure we are on the lists for all the three top preferred schools. However, going to the first preferred school would make both our lives so much easier...So I was advised to try an appeal too. But I'm not sure if I have any grounds for it... so this is what I have so far:

  • I know this school take on kids during the year. They usually end up with a lot of kids leaving/ joining in the first year - as many as 10
  • Our preferred school is not a big school, great academically and has a right balance of discipline and fun, which I think would benefit my kid immensely. It also have a great policy re homework, where they do it at school rather than home (not a club but compulsory). This would be ideal for him.
  • Its 15 minutes walk from us and 10 minutes walk from the Childminder’s house, which would mean he could be much more independent straight away. Its not the same as taking the bus and crossing several busy roads.
  • It will have all his friends in there, al the people he grew up with and this school takes kids from his primary school regularly. He already has friends there from years above him

With all that I understand my case is very slim, but do you think I should try appeal anyway? Like I said, I will call the LED and the school to make sure I’m on the waiting list etc. Is there anything else I could do?

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
BananaDaiquiri · 04/03/2024 10:07

Hi,
Not going to comment on the appeal as you have had good advice already.
However, If you are in central London, surely there are more schools between your 1st and 2nd choice and the allocated school. Appreciate that they may not all be accessible to your DS (for example some may be all girls, some may be a particular faith, and oversubscribed by those of that faith etc). But are you sure that there are no other shorter travelling options if that is the biggest issue?
Agree with others that they do get used to it though. Does he have a Zip Oyster card yet? If he's already 11 you can apply now (my Y6 daughter has hers and is already practising on the bus and tube alongside me or her older sister). He can maybe start practising with a 5 minute bus journey somewhere and back while you wait at the stop (I'm sure you know but bus is free with an 11-15 Zip oyster).
Also, as others have said, check that he definitely shouldn't have got a place (many boroughs have published their "how places were offered" lists online for this admissions round).
This list might be useful of schools with vacancies or likely to have a vacancy after next round of offers (not all boroughs, but many of the central ones):
List of potential secondary vacancies 2024.pdf

Original poster
localnotail · 03/03/2024 21:36

Pawtucketbrew · 03/03/2024 21:32

O thought you said there was no family around? Can his dad help with school run? Maybe cycle with him?

His dad is involved as best as he can be but he doesn't live with us, he works full time and only sees him at weekends. I will try to get him involved of course but he is not massively reliable.
Edited - there is nothing dodgy going on but we were never together so his involvement is the best we can have.

OP posts:
Pawtucketbrew · 03/03/2024 21:32

O thought you said there was no family around? Can his dad help with school run? Maybe cycle with him?

Original poster
localnotail · 03/03/2024 21:27

SquirmOfEels · 03/03/2024 21:18

Maybe cycle or walk as an alternative

You said it's a bit over 3 km - which is about 2 miles. So likely to be about 40 mins walk.

I think that might be the best bet. A DC who isn't yet capable of use the bus independently is unlikely to be ready to be cycling in London traffic. And the difference between a 35 min bus ride + 10 min walk, and a 40 min walk is in favour of walking

He is actually very good at cycling - his dad is a cycling nut so they go on the long trips round London together (I cant cycle at all). But it is a long way away and he will have to go on big roads alone, without an adult making sure he is safe... I think bus is the better option, we will have to practice. I'm staying optimistic! ))

OP posts:
SquirmOfEels · 03/03/2024 21:18

Maybe cycle or walk as an alternative

You said it's a bit over 3 km - which is about 2 miles. So likely to be about 40 mins walk.

I think that might be the best bet. A DC who isn't yet capable of use the bus independently is unlikely to be ready to be cycling in London traffic. And the difference between a 35 min bus ride + 10 min walk, and a 40 min walk is in favour of walking

Original poster
localnotail · 03/03/2024 21:17

Thingsthatgo · 03/03/2024 21:07

Kids grow up pretty fast once they get to secondary school. You might be surprised the amount your son matures by the time September come along.
I had the same worries with my DS, but we did the route a few times together, and then he did it on his own (I tracked him on Find my Phone), and he sent me a big smiling selfie in front of his new school.
Once he had done it a couple of times he was ready Smile

Thank you so much. Your message made me feel so much better... ))

OP posts:
Thingsthatgo · 03/03/2024 21:07

Kids grow up pretty fast once they get to secondary school. You might be surprised the amount your son matures by the time September come along.
I had the same worries with my DS, but we did the route a few times together, and then he did it on his own (I tracked him on Find my Phone), and he sent me a big smiling selfie in front of his new school.
Once he had done it a couple of times he was ready Smile

Verite1 · 03/03/2024 20:28

There is loads of movement in London schools. Definitely put yourself down on waiting lists, especially if you are within 1k of each. Check whether they are operated by LA or school themselves. Also - as I say, do check the criteria has been applied correctly just in case there has been a mistake.

meditrina · 03/03/2024 20:26

Secondary age DC are usually held to be capable of making their own way to and from school, and of making new friends at their new school

It would only be a good point for an appeal if you have evidence (in addition to your own assertion) about why he cannot meet those expectations (eg doctor's assessment - including what he needs from a school - or from some other relevant professional)

You will also need to show why you need the appealed for school is the only one that meets his needs. Is there anything else about the school that makes it a supremely good fit for him?

TotoroElla · 03/03/2024 20:26

clary · 03/03/2024 20:06

I think you do have some good arguments. Not so much that the school is a long way away but for your particular DC who is emotionally immature it is not suitable as he is unable to use public transport independently (how would he get to this school if you can't take him?) The homework policy is also suitable for him. And you can talk about the effect on his mental health to be separated from the community he has grown up in.

I know the OP has accepted what pp have said but just in case anyone else is reading and might want to use this argument - my understanding is that the DC's inability to use public transport is absolutely not something that can be taken into account - unless there is a doctor's letter (for example) saying that in their opinion the child needs a specific local school to avoid issues. This would also be the case wrt to his mental health.

The appeal panel cannot consider how a child would get to school. That's not something they can take into account.

Edited

In my case, they did take my DD's emotional immaturity into account and her mental health. I didn't provide any evidence mainly because the evidence would have had to come from her Primary and the LEA had instructed local schools to not provide any supporting information for appeals.

I often read on here the appeal panel won't take X into account or they won't want to hear about y and think that wasn't the case for me or others I have read about on here. So I think it's always worth going to appeal and to not take the information on here too literally.

Original poster
localnotail · 03/03/2024 20:21

The appeal panel cannot consider how a child would get to school. That's not something they can take into account.

I find it a bit shocking tbh.

OP posts:
Original poster
localnotail · 03/03/2024 20:18

Verite1 · 03/03/2024 20:14

I would definitely check they have applied criteria properly bearing in mind those that live further away have been offered a place.
As for journey, it sounds like you are in London. Have you checked overland, tube routes as well as bus? My Ds’s journey would take that on the bus - it’s minutes on the overland. We spent a week practicing the journey together over summer hols. By September, he didn’t want me to come at all!

Thank you - yes, we checked but the route is basically bus only. Maybe cycle or walk as an alternative.

As for the kids living further away getting in - there could be a lot of reasons - sibling, SEN, better CAT banding. Who knows. But the outcome is basically this - my DS has been rejected from all the schools his friends got into. Its quite hard to digest.

OP posts:
Verite1 · 03/03/2024 20:14

I would definitely check they have applied criteria properly bearing in mind those that live further away have been offered a place.
As for journey, it sounds like you are in London. Have you checked overland, tube routes as well as bus? My Ds’s journey would take that on the bus - it’s minutes on the overland. We spent a week practicing the journey together over summer hols. By September, he didn’t want me to come at all!

clary · 03/03/2024 20:06

I think you do have some good arguments. Not so much that the school is a long way away but for your particular DC who is emotionally immature it is not suitable as he is unable to use public transport independently (how would he get to this school if you can't take him?) The homework policy is also suitable for him. And you can talk about the effect on his mental health to be separated from the community he has grown up in.

I know the OP has accepted what pp have said but just in case anyone else is reading and might want to use this argument - my understanding is that the DC's inability to use public transport is absolutely not something that can be taken into account - unless there is a doctor's letter (for example) saying that in their opinion the child needs a specific local school to avoid issues. This would also be the case wrt to his mental health.

The appeal panel cannot consider how a child would get to school. That's not something they can take into account.

TotoroElla · 03/03/2024 19:38

I think you do have some good arguments. Not so much that the school is a long way away but for your particular DC who is emotionally immature it is not suitable as he is unable to use public transport independently (how would he get to this school if you can't take him?) The homework policy is also suitable for him. And you can talk about the effect on his mental health to be separated from the community he has grown up in.

Also I know people always say not to argue why the offered school isn't suitable - at my appeal I got asked why the offered school wasn't suitable so I was glad I had an answer!

Good luck!

EduCated · 03/03/2024 19:08

kiwiane · 03/03/2024 19:05

I would appeal as people don’t always accept their place and there will be a waiting list.

Appeals and waiting list are separate. Spare places will be allocated to the waiting list, and you don’t need to appeal to be on the waiting list.

kiwiane · 03/03/2024 19:05

I would appeal as people don’t always accept their place and there will be a waiting list.

minipie · 03/03/2024 18:58

It does sound just possible that the admission criteria were applied wrongly. This doesn’t happen often and as a pp says it is more likely that there is a different hidden reason why those further away kids got a place above yours. But errors do happen.

I agree with asking the LEA for the furthest distance that got an offer (if you were hoping for a place on distance). Check how distance is measured for that school, crow flies or walking.

If you are closer than the furthest distance awarded a place, measured on the correct basis then this is a good ground for appeal.

All the reasons about friendships and childminder and bus don’t really come into it tbh.

Also get yourself on the WL for sure.

Darhon · 03/03/2024 18:32

I absolutely get why you are using the childminder by the way. And agree, I’d be worried about my child travelling through london. I watched my eldest walk up the road to her suburban school 20 mins away and it felt huge!

catndogslife · 03/03/2024 18:26

Make sure that you are on the waiting list(s). In my experience more people obtain places via waiting lists than win appeals.

Lougle · 03/03/2024 18:19

It doesn't mean you can't appeal - just that those grounds are weak. If you can find things that are better for your DS at your preferred school, they might give better grounds for appeal.

Original poster
localnotail · 03/03/2024 17:48

Thank you everyone who answered. I already had a feeling that appealing will be a waste of time; I was not going to do it but I had a couple of people telling me I have a case. I still have to speak to his primary school to see what htey would say, and to our Admissions, but probably would not bother with all the stress. I will get on the waiting list and see where this will get us.

I would also like to say that all kids are different and develop at a different pace. My DS is very immature and even though he is starting to get more independent - goes to shop by himself, or to see his friends in the park - he is not ready yet to travel by bus, on his own, through central London. We will work on it but see what happens - if he has to go into the school we got I might have to re-arrange my working hours to get him into routine.

Thanks anyway, at least this issue is clear to me now!

OP posts:
Original poster
localnotail · 03/03/2024 17:40

Thank you everyone. Re childminder - well, maybe it is unusual but it works for us. I don't have any family, she was looking after him since he was a baby so she is basically like a grandma to him. Its not a financial arrangement anymore, he goes there because he wants to; he says he would rather be there then on his own. Also, I get home at 7:30 and I can imagine him not eating and not doing homework, so at least when he's there he is fed and is not on his Xbox.

OP posts:
Lougle · 03/03/2024 17:04

So here's what happened:

We got our 4th choice school. Good school but huge and new
Its 35 minutes bus ride and 10 minutes walk away from us - over 3km away

Unfortunately the safe walking distance is 3 miles so bus rides are irrelevant.

All DS's friends ended up in 2 schools which were 1st and 2nd on our list – no idea how, some live further away than us. We are within 1km of both schools.

Check the criteria carefully. Should you have been given a place?

DS was sure he will get into our preferred school, or at least the other two so now is massively depressed and upset, as you might imagine. None of his friends are going to the school we got. We used to live close to the no.1 choice school until 2 years ago, he grew up next to it and was always convinced that's where he is going.

Unfortunately irrelevant

DS is quite immature and can’t travel by himself on a bus, we are working on it but at the moment he cant do it. He is quite terrified of the prospect - I know it will be ok eventually but I wont be able to help him even for a few months while he is getting used to it, as I work all day. I was hoping he will be ok with it by now but he is still fearful and I don't want to push him too hard.
I’m a single parent, work full time, get back home at 7:30 and rely heavily on my Childminder. She will look after him after school and check he does homework but he will have to travel by himself to hers, on a different bus/ different route, also about 30-40 minutes.

Unfortunately a panel can't take logistics into account

But I'm not sure if I have any grounds for it... so this is what I have so far:
I know this school take on kids during the year. They usually end up with a lot of kids leaving/ joining in the first year - as many as 10

The panel can't take possibilities into account.

Our preferred school is not a big school, great academically and has a right balance of discipline and fun, which I think would benefit my kid immensely. It also have a great policy re homework, where they do it at school rather than home (not a club but compulsory). This would be ideal for him.

This could help if you have evidence that he would struggle to do his homework at home.

Its 15 minutes walk from us and 10 minutes walk from the Childminder’s house, which would mean he could be much more independent straight away. Its not the same as taking the bus and crossing several busy roads.
It will have all his friends in there, al the people he grew up with and this school takes kids from his primary school regularly. He already has friends there from years above him

None of this can be taken into account

As it stands, your appeal reasons are weak. Work out why you were refused a place and look more closely at what your preferred school offers to get stronger grounds for appeal.

IncognitoUsername · 03/03/2024 16:59

Are you continuing with the childminder because you get home so late? What time do you start work - could you go with him on the bus to start with so he gets used to it?